[3aidlillahi]

I've been drinking tea a good bit over the past year or so. I've been able to get it on sale frequently for about 10 cents plus taxes per bag. I recently noticed that an organic tea is available for about 7.5 cents. I hadn't noticed this organic tea until recently so I don't know how the prices have changed, but non-organic prices have increased a penny or two per bag.

But I've been wondering, due to higher oil prices and higher food prices, has anyone noticed a substantial narrowing of the prices of organic versus "traditional" foods? Have organic pastas, fruits, veggies and such had any price increases as much as oil-based food?

[joeltrout]

Organic foods are typically more expensive here due to the fact that they produce less of it. Fertilized foods produce much more product and therefore can be sold at lower prices.

Organic foods produce less on a commercial scale and therefore are more epensive and considered a luxury purchase.

joeltrout

[3aidlillahi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('joeltrout', 'O')rganic foods are typically more expensive here due to the fact that they produce less of it. Fertilized foods produce much more product and therefore can be sold at lower prices.

Organic foods produce less on a commercial scale and therefore are more epensive and considered a luxury purchase.

joeltrout

[Ludi]

Organic milk at HEB grocery has gone up about 30% over the past six months or so.

Organic coffee has not gone up appreciably.

[joeltrout]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('3aidlillahi', '
')
I know. Organic foods though don't use fertilizer and pesticides so they are less susceptible to oil price swings (in fact, hardly at all). So as food prices rise due to oil prices surging, fertilized foods will increase rapidly in prices but organic foods won't increase as much therefore, the price difference will decrease. I simply assumed that everyone knew this so I didn't bother posting this.

I simply asked if the rise in oil has significantly reduced the price margin between the two. Has anyone noticed? In which foods?

[3aidlillahi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'O')rganic milk at HEB grocery has gone up about 30% over the past six months or so.

Organic coffee has not gone up appreciably.

[Cashmere]

Peak oil is going to be really bad for Vegans.

Organic food is going to go up in price at a higher rate than non, because they are more energy intensive to grow.

It's that simple.

If you ask yourself why organic crops cost more than non right now, it's because the amount of land and energy required to grow a fixed amount is higher.

So when people are strapped, they are going to buy the cheapest thing available, which will be the DDT treated potatoes, not the organic potatoes, which required more fuel to farm, and more expensive and fuel dependent "natural" pesticides.

[Narz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cashmere', 'P')eak oil is going to be really bad for Vegans.

[kpeavey]

Cropland being converted to organic practices have slowed over the past couple of years. Farmers are finding it more lucrative to plant corn and soybeans and continue chemical/industrial practices rather than make the switch. It can take 3 years in most cases to become certified as organic, this is the time required to allow previous pesticide/herbicide/fertilizers to dissipate. Meanwhile, demand for organic produce is growing faster than the cropland is being converted.

Prices for organic produce will remain higher, typically 1.5 to 3 times more than industrial produce, for several years to come, assuming there is an economy. As the price of industrial produce climbs, due to increased input costs and increased global demand, organics will not climb at the same rate. The markets for organic produce are changing, getting closer to the production site. The difference in shipping costs will be that which has the greatest impact on the price difference. In the end, it all comes down to shipping costs. Organics will be available locally, in season, at a better price, but it is projected to be several years before this is the paradigm.

[3aidlillahi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kpeavey', 'C')ropland being converted to organic practices have slowed over the past couple of years. Farmers are finding it more lucrative to plant corn and soybeans and continue chemical/industrial practices rather than make the switch. It can take 3 years in most cases to become certified as organic, this is the time required to allow previous pesticide/herbicide/fertilizers to dissipate. Meanwhile, demand for organic produce is growing faster than the cropland is being converted.

Prices for organic produce will remain higher, typically 1.5 to 3 times more than industrial produce, for several years to come, assuming there is an economy. As the price of industrial produce climbs, due to increased input costs and increased global demand, organics will not climb at the same rate. The markets for organic produce are changing, getting closer to the production site. The difference in shipping costs will be that which has the greatest impact on the price difference. In the end, it all comes down to shipping costs. Organics will be available locally, in season, at a better price, but it is projected to be several years before this is the paradigm.

[killJOY]

I'm an organic gardener, and I work part-time at an organic farm, a job I really love.

Organics, as it is currently practiced outside the personal garden, has no future.

Cashmere is wrong about organics taking "more energy": It uses far less fossil energy. But it does take more LABOR. This is both its virtue and its Achilles heel.

The problem with organics is the "certification" process itself. Organic groups are pricing themselves right out of existence.

Most organics is fake. It's a label for chi-chi hippies to attach their personal goodness to.

The certifier (i.e. hippy rabbi) comes to the farm and blesses it. This winnows out farmers. The effect is to LIMIT THE SUPPLY and thus RAISE THE COST of organically grown food.

Think about it: you have to wait a certain number of years for the land to "purify" itself; you have to buy expensive holier-than-thou amendments and pesticides; you have to have a pool of cheap acolyte labor (usually non-existent, so you get grants and subsidies and employ "volunteers").

The farmer has so many hoops to jump through that you end up with fewer farmers willing to go organic. This, as I stated above, limits the supply. The organic certification process is a marketing ploy to keep prices high.

The claims of organic farmers are usually bogus as well. The skeptics dictionary has an excoriating review of organic food and farming. Every organic farmer should read it and contemplate what they are really in this for.

So why am I in it?

For personal survival. I make no claims for my produce other than I grow it myself without chemical inputs (which are expensive). I have a cellar full of food at the end of the year, and if THS really HTF, I've already practiced and perfected methods of growing the whole panoply of foods with just shovels, rakes, manures, mulches and hard work.

I like my work at the organic farm because of its small scale, and I personally detest listening large machinery all day, although I do have to drive the tractor a lot.

If we suddenly had a motivated work force eager to spend hours planting, hoeing, weeding, mulching, watering and picking in the hot sun, then I would gladly eat my statement above that organic farming has no future. But this is fat-ass America, where people would rather stand in bread lines in expensive sneakers chatting on their cellphones, than stand in fields in the hot sun contemplating the squash.

Let me repeat: the organics "movement," as it is currently practiced, is not interested in planning for a "sustainable," fossil-energy-reduced future. It is interested in hyping over-priced "toxin-free" carrots to gullible Prius drivers.

[manu]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cashmere', 'P')eak oil is going to be really bad for Vegans.

Organic food is going to go up in price at a higher rate than non, because they are more energy intensive to grow.

It's that simple.

If you ask yourself why organic crops cost more than non right now, it's because the amount of land and energy required to grow a fixed amount is higher.

So when people are strapped, they are going to buy the cheapest thing available, which will be the DDT treated potatoes, not the organic potatoes, which required more fuel to farm, and more expensive and fuel dependent "natural" pesticides.

[Cashmere]

Narz, you're right. I was wrong to use "vegan". I should have stuck with "organic".

If Vegans are OK with biotech food, non-organic food, and products tested on animals, then they'll be fine.

My point is, with prices rising, all groups will be driven toward the lower cost.

As for Killjoy -

Explain to me what extra labor is required to grow and harvest apples "organically"?

It seems to me that the only difference between an organic apple orchard and a non org. apple orchard is the yield per hectare and the cost of energy inputs. How much could certification cost? Certainly not a large portion of the difference in price.

[Ludi]

Killjoy, I agree with you. Most of organic agriculture is a money-making scheme for the middleman.

[kpeavey]

Killjoy wrote$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')rganics, as it is currently practiced outside the personal garden, has no future.

[Windmills]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kpeavey', 'I') think that with the coming recession/depression we will have that motivated workforce.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Windmills', ' ')People are going to be lined up for any job that allows them to eat for another day.

[aflurry]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cashmere', '
')Organic food is going to go up in price at a higher rate than non, because they are more energy intensive to grow.

[Cashmere]

OK, the basics.

10 acre apple farm.

With common, relatively cheap, pesticides and fertilizer, yields X pounds of produce with Z amount of labor.

Without common, relatively cheap pesticides and fertilizer, yields 0.5X pounds of produce with Z amount of labor or a bit less.

Conclusion:

1st apple farm cost per apple is less.

By the way Shanny, I don't agree that organics are substantially more healthy than non, if at all.

While it sounds great that "natural pesticides" are used rather than "synthetic pesticides", the issue is a molecular issue, not a title issue.