[kevincarter]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ferretlover', ' ')Our species, like all other species here with us, developed as a result of chemical actions/reactions, and mutations as our environment allowed it.

[Ferretlover]

HHHmmm... Should I have said random molecules and atoms instead of chemicals, etc? I admit that I can not name every single ingredient that makes up the human body (and, frankly, I don't think I there is time to start studying the human anatomy), but I am sure that there are some chemicals in us..(iron, magnesium(sp?), etc).
Where/how do you think humans started? Dropped off from visiting comets-NO! I am NOT trying to be smart-alecky... I am interested in your point of view...

"Does humanity serve any purpose after peak oil? No. Before Oil? No. During Peak Oil? No"
I agree 100%

Yes, I am in love with my husband of over 31 years.. Yes, I have been happy.. Yes, I do accomplish things. Are these things important to me? Yes. Do they matter to anyone else. No.
Are they of any importance, on their own, of any importance in the "grand scheme of things?" No. Do I think that the only reason to exist is to enjoy onesself? No.
The "me, me, me" mindset is, I think, one of the contributing factors (albeit a minor one perhaps) to the mess we are in now...
As for suicide... Have I ever considered it? Yes-when I was a child being repeatedly beaten and mentally abused, etc by my mother. But, I discovered I had a strong survival instinct. That is when I learned to watch others, see how they got into and out of different types of situations, what types of people existed, who had good ethics, who to avoid, etc. I learned to think about my existence and what I wanted to get out of it-doing as little harm to others and my environment as possible.
Is it an option now? No. Survival is still a strong force for me, and I have sons, and some nieces and nephews that I want to help however I can because I see good qualities in them that would be an asset to the upcoming world.
The point I was trying to make (apparently poorly-sorry) is that there are going to be some suicides in the future scenarios because there seem to be a lot of people who do not have coping capabilities.. By the way, do I think suicide is a viable option (re: Soylent green, Dr. Kevorkian (sp?)), yes. I think that it is a personal choice. But, it is possible that some people make that choice influenced by the 'wrong' reasons.

[kevincarter]

Where do we come from? The hell if I know!!!!! Carl Sagan said one that a fly can not underestand how a TV set work because its brain is just too limited, and that we humans can't underestand the origin of the universe for the same reason. (and I don't even get how a TV set works to begin with!), but anyway, I buy the comet theory more than the"cocktail from bacteria".

Good to hear that you are in love.

[Toploader]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Toploader', 'S')ome people seem to think that the end of the industrial age means we will regress contentiously until we are back living in caves. This is just crazy. Providing that war or diseases do not completely wipe out mankind (this is not as likely as some seem to believe IMO) then the future post peak could be very prosperous in different ways.

Remember, as the worlds technology gets better, we as people have regressed as we get more reliant on technology to live. Most people in wealthy nations have little or no survival skills. This is disturbing and is most definitely not progress.

Think about it, after the smoke has cleared, worst of the resource wars is over and the population of the planet back to 1-2 billion or so, we will have a much greater knowledge of the planet then what we did before industrialization. There will still be books and records, not all will get destroyed in the rioting We will still be far more advanced then we were before fossil fuels, and we can still carry on advancing. Technology will still exist, and we will still have the knowledge needed to power some of it, just not to the scale we are right now (and thank god for that, it's ridiculous right now)

I think of it as the 'scavenger' age. With a good few billion less people on the planet and all this extraction and industrialization, there will be a lot of shit for us to play with. Maybe, just maybe, we will be able to enjoy some simpler technologies (to meet our comfort needs) yet still be sustainable and not ruin the planet any further.

I dunno, I just have faith in mankind as a whole to adapt. Natural selection will be the order of the day in the mean time.

[lper100km]

The end of oil will of necessity cause the end of the ability to travel except locally, negatively impact industrial manufacturing and grossly and adversely impact agriculture production and distribution. Long range communications are unlikely to survive.

The long term effect (100 yrs?) will be to cause the breakdown of national governmental organization and a probable reversion to small scale townships or city states, maybe with some form of tribal/feudal structure. Democracy? Freedom?? Don’t count on it.

It may be that pockets of highly technical societies can survive in some sort of protected isolation (re: Children of Men, Oryx & Crake) but whatever happens, the only purpose of humanity is to survive whatever the circumstances are. Same as any other species.

[kakkerlak]

Hmmm...

Purpose of humans?
Humans are the result of evolution just like everything else that lives on the planet. The only thing that makes humans different from most animals is our better developed brain and even that is nothing special. We're not special and we don't have any purpose except trying to survive, just like any other living thing on the planet.

I'm not satisfied with this description!!!

One thing makes humans different from all other living things on the planet. This one thing gives humans a purpose and makes us special. Only one thing answers the question "What am I?" and that one thing is...choice!

We don't have to survive! We don't have to eat! We don't have to do anything! We have a choice!

To explain this using an extreme example;
Imagine a sweet bunny in the middle of Africa surrounded by predators. This little bunny is all alone and his leg is broken so it can't run away when it's attacked. Any predator (for example a hyena) that finds this crippled bunny is very likely to eat it because his instincts don't ignore an easy meal. Hungry humans have the same instinct an when really hungry this sweet looking and crippled bunny is very likely to become dinner. But not always! Even when very hungry and not eating this sweet bunny means a painful dead, we humans have a choice. We can choose to die! We can even choose to help this little bunny, maybe give it medicine and take the consequences of this action.

Nobody is actually going to do this when hungry, but at the end we have a choice. In most cases, when we're not hungry, many people will try to help this poor bunny. No other animal on the planet can do that. Most predators kill and eat this bunny even when they have plenty to eat because that's what predators do.

To come back to the question; purpose of humans?
We can choose our own purpose; What do we want?

At the end all humans want the same.
We all want love and a healthy live.
At the end nobody wants to see suffering and pain.
And we all have to make choices to make that happen.

The earth and every living thing on it is incredible beautiful and i love the entire world from the bottom of my soul. Only thinking about the beauty and the love i feel for the world almost makes me cry. Dig deep into your soul, don't you feel the same thing? I think every human feels exactly the same thing...somewhere deep down.

The most terrible thing that can happen is the destruction of this world and all its beauty. Destroying this beauty is worse then dead and that's exactly what's happening for many thousands of years now. The thing we call "civilization" is a lie and it has to end!

I strongly believe we (humanity) have a simple choice even a kid can understand;
1) Working together and make this world a better place for everyone.
2) We destroy each other and make this world a living hell.

Right now we choose for hell.
Strangely enough we even fool ourself into thinking this hell we created is fun.

It's cruel to say, but;
I hope the coming collapse (or whatever you like to call it) is very very painful, depressing, full of suffering, pain and dead so we finally learn our lesson and start doing the "right" thing. And if, even after all this suffering, we still don't do it "right" then we don't deserve to be alive.

I wish there is another way, without suffering, but we humans are very difficult learners.
Now i understand why so many people believe (or hope) a God exist.

Have fun!
Roach

[alecifel]

Wow. That was about as good and moving an explanation as I've heard. Kudo's Roach!

[Toploader]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kakkerlak', '*')snip*

[FourOfSwords]

Does humanity serve any purpose after peak oil? ~ Sure, hopefully we'll go back to how we were before agriculture grabbed us by our cajones and never let go until now...innocuous hunter gatherers roaming the face of the earth in small numbers...and maybe never swelling to the numbers we have today.
Cheers
Alex( scavenging amongst the leavings of this titanic ediface called civilization) :O

[alecifel]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'h')opefully we'll go back to how we were before agriculture grabbed us by our cajones and never let go until now...innocuous hunter gatherers roaming the face of the earth in small numbers...

[FourOfSwords]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('alecifel', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'h')opefully we'll go back to how we were before agriculture grabbed us by our cajones and never let go until now...innocuous hunter gatherers roaming the face of the earth in small numbers...

[mos6507]

This looks like the thread for people who need some therapy sessions.

[FourOfSwords]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', 'T')his looks like the thread for people who need some therapy sessions.

[alecifel]

I'm not sure where you live, FourofSwords, but it's probably a safe bet that you're not in the tropics. Hunting and gathering is not a lifestyle that will really work in the temperate zones, where winter tends to strip one of most things they can hunt and gather. The Sac and Fox had to survive four months out of every year on pecans (which means "tough nut to crack" in their language.) and if you ever had to survive on pecans alone, you would find yourself missing agriculture and its storable surplus in a hurry.

The mindset of hunting and gathering is, at best, crude tribalism and at its worst, essentially warlordism/gangsterism (hence the bronx/liberia/taliban connotation). The 'chief' is the one who is best able to hold on to power. Although some HG societies (mostly in Latin America, North America, and south Asia) were able to live a more or less peaceful and happy life, this was due more to lack of contact with other tribes than any kind of social norm.

Now I admit there's a certain segment of the community out there that looks at peaking energy and thinks of Mad Max and how cool it would be to go back to a pre-civilized society... usually with the idea that the individual in question is going to be the Ayatollah of Rock and Roll himself. In all likelihood, that isn't going to happen.

Unless you've grown up in a harsh environment or under conditions of social unrest - and I mean REAL social unrest, not the fluffy soft version we occasionally get in these Western countries - i.e., if you grew up in Liberia or Afghanistan, or maybe Rwanda - a collapse of all civilization, the end of agriculture and a reversion to pre-civilized 'social order' will probably soon end in your unpleasant demise.

[aldente]

hey Kakerlak, you overlook the fact that the system is happy and alive, in fact thriving...

Your reasoning is based on a timeline of death.

All this might well survive as the Kakerlaks ever did.

Point is, there is no need to PANIC! OK! Hold your horses, boy!

[MrBean]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('alecifel', 'I')'m not sure where you live, FourofSwords, but it's probably a safe bet that you're not in the tropics. Hunting and gathering is not a lifestyle that will really work in the temperate zones, where winter tends to strip one of most things they can hunt and gather. The Sac and Fox had to survive four months out of every year on pecans (which means "tough nut to crack" in their language.) and if you ever had to survive on pecans alone, you would find yourself missing agriculture and its storable surplus in a hurry.

The mindset of hunting and gathering is, at best, crude tribalism and at its worst, essentially warlordism/gangsterism (hence the bronx/liberia/taliban connotation). The 'chief' is the one who is best able to hold on to power. Although some HG societies (mostly in Latin America, North America, and south Asia) were able to live a more or less peaceful and happy life, this was due more to lack of contact with other tribes than any kind of social norm.

Now I admit there's a certain segment of the community out there that looks at peaking energy and thinks of Mad Max and how cool it would be to go back to a pre-civilized society... usually with the idea that the individual in question is going to be the Ayatollah of Rock and Roll himself. In all likelihood, that isn't going to happen.

Unless you've grown up in a harsh environment or under conditions of social unrest - and I mean REAL social unrest, not the fluffy soft version we occasionally get in these Western countries - i.e., if you grew up in Liberia or Afghanistan, or maybe Rwanda - a collapse of all civilization, the end of agriculture and a reversion to pre-civilized 'social order' will probably soon end in your unpleasant demise.

[DomusAlbion]

"Life in an unspoilt San or Nenets community was and is more egalitarian than a person conditioned by the hierarchical systems of civilization could even imagine, their Shamans are not hierarchical "chiefs" but servants, and war was never their way."

Yah, we should all live like that, but you go first and lead the way.

[kakkerlak]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'h')ey Kakerlak, you overlook the fact that the system is happy and alive, in fact thriving...

[aldente]

Hey Roach,

You've got the right understanding and I would like to back away from my previous comment, I must have been buzzed once more and the (lack of) quality of my posts stands in direct relationship with the BAC.

The fascinating part is indeed that all development seems to go from 100 to zero - business as usual as long as possible. The system thrives and grows as long as it is fueled.

In so far the Hubbert graph is not applicable as an analogy to the human situation, since the development is not bell shaped. The fact that the current system is obsolete does not need to be discussed but should be clear to every PeakOiler.

The only hope that humanity can have is that consciousness unfolds into an advanced level with a quantum leap. The developments to come might be even necessary to trigger that process.

[kakkerlak]

Uhhh....i don't know what BAC means....the only appropiate definition i could find using Google is: "Blood Alcohol Concentration".

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he only hope that humanity can have is that consciousness unfolds into an advanced level with a quantum leap.