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Shamanism and Chaos magic

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Re: Shamanism and Chaos magic

Unread postby threadbear » Mon 21 Jan 2008, 21:01:51

Hmm...interesting...and some people have animal magnetism and others have minimal magnetism.
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Re: Shamanism and Chaos magic

Unread postby mos6507 » Tue 22 Jan 2008, 05:58:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'E')pitomizes everything I loathe:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHseRSX42v8


I'm with you on that one!
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Re: Shamanism and Chaos magic

Unread postby threadbear » Tue 22 Jan 2008, 15:05:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'E')pitomizes everything I loathe:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHseRSX42v8


I'm with you on that one!


It's easy to tar everyone with an esoteric bent with the same brush, but if you read through this thread, carefully, it's apparent how inappropriate this is. Perhaps I've made my point and am now blunting it through repetition. I have all of the same concerns rationalists and atheists have about the potential toxic effects of ANY non-rational system of beliefs.

At the same time, I have to take my own personal experiences into account and can't dismiss what I have heard and seen. It's the reality behind mystical belief that makes it both potentially illuminating and destructive, imho. That's how many of us, JPL, Dr.BAng, TWilliam and others to approach it, if I can speak for them.
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Re: Shamanism and Chaos magic

Unread postby bodigami » Tue 22 Jan 2008, 18:45:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BlisteredWhippet', 'I') vote this most boring thread of 2008. What do you guys think?


Why do you participate in it, do NOT click and be happy.
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Re: Shamanism and Chaos magic

Unread postby bodigami » Tue 22 Jan 2008, 18:51:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BlisteredWhippet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JPL', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BlisteredWhippet', 'S')hamans can do whatever trivially unique thing that it is they do, I'm just asking that if talking to the dead, for instance, they get some help on saving the fucking planet, while they're at it.


With regard to 'saving the fucking planet' I think you might be expressing frustration more about your own spiritual beliefs, than mine.


Ohh, I'm titillated... what might I be expressing?? My own belief is that "real" spirituality arises out of the mundane and ordinary decisions we make as human beings. I also believe that the most powerful set of conditions arises in moral and ethical dilemmas, where humans exercise imagination in concert with intentions for "good" outcomes.

There is some power in contemplating your navel, attempting to bend paper clips with your mind, or meditating until you hear your Dead Uncle Bob's disembodied voice, but its all rather pointless, isn't it? My point is that anyone's time is better spent trying to untangle the mundane mysteries of life that tangling one's mind in the circular, make-believe of personal delusion. I really think that most of this is just delusion. We all have a remarkable power to fool ourselves. Sometimes this is fun. But it is hardly relevant to any social reality. For most people who imagine this ability to have power in their lives is a total distortion of perception. Anyone can be self-deluded, it takes minimal willpower.


You're the one deluded, you don't understand the basis of meditation and its effects.
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Re: Shamanism and Chaos magic

Unread postby culicomorpha » Wed 23 Jan 2008, 02:22:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'I') wonder how some of you feel about the resurgence of interest in New Age ideas, as a social force, from a more anthropological view point?


Well, despite my complaints about the new-agers, I think they are just searching for something deeper, more meaningful than what we find in our world today. And in a lot of ways, that seems to me a good thing. I applaud anyone who is seeking something more, a different way. From all religions or beliefs.

For me personally, the mundane world I live in is a hell that I would rather not be in if I had a choice in the matter. The fact of the matter is that the culture in the US, particularly, is absolutely out of its mind, and has one and only one possible end-point unless things change dramatically from the current direction.

How many cases of cancer will it take before people understand that you can't just alter the world with immunity? For me, it's the place where my spirituality intersects with the reality I live in. And I know I'm not alone in feeling this way.

One of out of 2.7 people living today in the US will get cancer. One out of 10 couples cannot conceive. 5 million people have Alzheimer's. Obesity and diabetes are way beyond the 5% criteria for an epidemic. And things are getting dramatically worse because medicine only treats symptoms, but the causes are off the table.

Sure, we can blame this stuff on lifestyles, but come on. There is a much deeper problem that we don't want to face: our way of life, our taken for granted assumptions about the way the world works are simply false. But we pretend that everything is fine, and hope that maybe things will get better on their own.

This seems to me to be chaos magic writ large. It is what happens when many people hold a false epistemology. One of my favorite quotes seems apropos in this regard:

"If you put God outside and set him vis-a-vis his creation and if you have the idea that you are created in his image, you will logically and naturally see yourself as outside and against all the things around you. And as you arrogate all mind to yourself, you will see the world as mindless and therefore not entitled to moral or ethical consideration. The environment will seem yours to exploit. Your survival unit will be you and your conspecifics against the environment of of other social units, other races and the brutes and the vegetables.

If this is your estimate of your relation to nature and you have an advanced technology [his emphasis], your likelihood of survival will be that of a snowball in hell. You will die either of the toxic byproducts of your own hate, or, simply, of overpopulation and overgrazing. The raw materials of the world are finite." Gregory Bateson
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Re: Shamanism and Chaos magic

Unread postby greenworm » Wed 23 Jan 2008, 14:31:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'E')pitomizes everything I loathe:


Thanks for that, I'm going to watch that later, I had a friend get into that about 5 years ago. Needless to say, I don't see him very often, he got delusional. I never really understood what it was about, I just ignored him like he was JH'er coming to my front door. :lol:
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Re: Shamanism and Chaos magic

Unread postby mercurygirl » Wed 23 Jan 2008, 14:45:47

So bizarre. He doesn't even seem to be able to string coherent thoughts together. Here's more wacky stuff, scroll down to view him at an award ceremony.

Link

We're witnessing unprecedented spiritual confusion, TC is only one example.
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Re: Shamanism and Chaos magic

Unread postby greenworm » Wed 23 Jan 2008, 16:27:56

I found some 4 part series on these guys. Pretty well organized aren't they. Pretty weird!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2LL46de ... re=related
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Re: Shamanism and Chaos magic

Unread postby BigTex » Wed 23 Jan 2008, 17:17:52

This is an interesting thread. It reminds me why people say it's not a good idea to talk about religion or politics with others.

I don't care what anybody believes, but if they seem to be trying and interested in finding answers that is a lot more encouraging than if they are stuck in a consumption stupor. There are people in this thread who seem to be trying to find answers that will provide them with understanding; I don't know why this is so annoying to those who disagree with a given approach.

Words will always be imprecise, especially when it comes to conveying ultra-subtle spiritual ideas. People do their best, sometimes it sounds dumb, but I hate to think that the measure of truth is a person's ability to articulate in words ideas and feelings that don't lend themselves to description. Kind of like describing being in love. It's just hard to convey the feeling to someone who hasn't had it.

Christianity would be a great faith if people limited it to doing what Jesus said to do. Studying Jesus's teachings without all of the aftermarket add-ons can be very eye-opening, even to someone who has attended a Christian church for a long time. Jesus was deeply skeptical of organized and institutional religion (don't take my word for it, see for yourself). That approach is probably a sound one for most seekers.

Once the arguing starts, the truth stops flowing. You can argue with this position if you want, but once people begin to focus on the flaws in another's position or approach, one's openness to new ideas gets much narrower. Arguing can be fun, but don't mistake it for a search for truth. The instant most people begin to argue their minds are pretty much made up.

I've got several texts I enjoy reading. One is Lao Tzu's Tao Te Ching. Another is Thoreau's Walden. The words of Jesus are good. Ecclesiastes is good. The Art of Wordly Wisdom by Balthasar Gracian is good. Alan Watts wrote some good books. Some of the theosophy texts that NEOPO talked about are good. I read most of it as METHOD--i.e., here is a way of preparing your mind to experience truth or absorb new ideas effectively (as opposed to believing that the method itself is somehow the truth).

I wish there were one truth, because then when someone found it he or she could just tell everyone else. I think the reality is more like dealing with cold callers on the phone--never buy anything from them, even if it is something you kind of want to buy. Instead, do your own research, shop around, talk to a lot of people, compare prices and features, then make up your own mind. The prospect of a salesman bringing you the truth (your acceptance of which will benefit him in some way) is small, I believe.

Conversations like this are great, though. I'm surprised people are getting so frustrated with one another.
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Re: Shamanism and Chaos magic

Unread postby mercurygirl » Wed 23 Jan 2008, 18:39:45

You make some good points, Tex, like the one about argument.

I'm glad to see you're really a reasonable and fairly tolerant guy, because I didn't think so after you dissed my factual statement about some unexplained mysteries on the other thread.
:o
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Re: Shamanism and Chaos magic

Unread postby BigTex » Wed 23 Jan 2008, 18:49:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mercurygirl', 'Y')ou make some good points, Tex, like the one about argument.

I'm glad to see you're really a reasonable and fairly tolerant guy, because I didn't think so after you dissed my factual statement about some unexplained mysteries on the other thread.
:o


You misunderstood me (or I mis-wrote). I didn't diss you. Was that the one about Raphael helping with some paranormal issues in the Bigfoot thread?

Trust me, you don't want to get too deep into any of the astral plane issues involving Bigfoot without Raphael; that's some rough country, and you need a good guide.

Edit: I re-read the Bigfoot posts, and it looks like I also might have dissed you on the comment that Bigfoots have been reported to have run down deer. If that is true, then perhaps Bigfoot's prospects among people might not be so bad. Think about what an amazing linebacker he would make in the NFL--

"This kid's awesome! He weighs 700 pounds, he's 7 feet tall and he can run down any back or receiver in the league. I've heard that when he's hungry he can run down a deer!"

Every Bigfoot presumably also has four years of NCAA eligibility as well, in case they need to polish their game.

Sorry, I'm not messing with you, I just can't get this image out of my head of Bigfoot being this amazing athlete.
Last edited by BigTex on Wed 23 Jan 2008, 19:06:04, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shamanism and Chaos magic

Unread postby JPL » Wed 23 Jan 2008, 18:50:14

This post is only for people interested in the subject BTW, else ignore.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JPL', '
')
From ancient lands a man will come,
from ancient hands a web will one,
from more & last will web be followed,
as more & less from time be borrowed.

As each one will & next be last,
then more & more will time be past,
as more & more will one be borrowed,
until the end, and parting's sorrow.


I've been doing my tax returns for a couple of days, to busy to post. But between-times I think I have figured out parts of the riddle.

from ancient hands a web will one

OK this was the key. The answer is 'SILK'. Woven in ancient China, from grub/moth web-material into one form (cloth).

Attention now to the top line. OK, ancient land ought to be an old civilisation, Egypt, Mesopotenia (Iraq) or China. We have China from the second one so China is the 'ancient land' in the first.

So the first two lines say, "China, person from it."

OK lines 3 & 4.

from more & last will web be followed,
as more & less from time be borrowed.

Very odd it is a description of something. I have 3 possible explanations:

a) Futures market
b) Sub-atomic physics
3) Geographic location along the IDL (International Date Line)

OK, we need more clarification. Lets look at the rest:

As each one will & next be last,
then more & more will time be past,
as more & more will one be borrowed,
until the end, and parting's sorrow.

This is partly gibberish but to me it has an odd resonance with the exchange of particles that take place when hydrogen atoms fuse together. I know a bit about particle physics which is why my sub-conscious mind may have assembled this odd rhyme.

So, threadbear, I will stick my little feather-stuck head forward & say that as far as I can figure, your 'message of hope' from the Dark lands is:

Chinese (or Chinese scientist's) Nuclear Fusion.

No date unfortunately. I have never put myself in the 'fusion will save us' camp so this is a real surprise to me! Nevertheless this is how I interpret it.

PM me if you want to chat more without the background scoffing.

JP

Edit: yea, sorry, if people are confused about how I have to reverse-engineer my own words - it's just the way it happens. I have no conscious idea what I'm writing at the time...
Last edited by JPL on Wed 23 Jan 2008, 19:43:28, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Shamanism and Chaos magic

Unread postby JPL » Wed 23 Jan 2008, 19:16:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BlisteredWhippet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JPL', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BlisteredWhippet', 'S')hamans can do whatever trivially unique thing that it is they do, I'm just asking that if talking to the dead, for instance, they get some help on saving the fucking planet, while they're at it.


With regard to 'saving the fucking planet' I think you might be expressing frustration more about your own spiritual beliefs, than mine.


Ohh, I'm titillated... what might I be expressing?? My own belief is that "real" spirituality arises out of the mundane and ordinary decisions we make as human beings. I also believe that the most powerful set of conditions arises in moral and ethical dilemmas, where humans exercise imagination in concert with intentions for "good" outcomes.

There is some power in contemplating your navel, attempting to bend paper clips with your mind, or meditating until you hear your Dead Uncle Bob's disembodied voice, but its all rather pointless, isn't it? My point is that anyone's time is better spent trying to untangle the mundane mysteries of life that tangling one's mind in the circular, make-believe of personal delusion. I really think that most of this is just delusion. We all have a remarkable power to fool ourselves. Sometimes this is fun. But it is hardly relevant to any social reality. For most people who imagine this ability to have power in their lives is a total distortion of perception. Anyone can be self-deluded, it takes minimal willpower.


Yea, there is power in your arguement & I respect you for what you say. But you are still talking about 'your' spiritual beliefs rather than mine.

I do not talk about my spiritual beliefs to anyone - unless people ask a direct question which was asked, here.

JP
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Re: Shamanism and Chaos magic

Unread postby mercurygirl » Wed 23 Jan 2008, 22:11:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', 'Y')ou misunderstood me (or I mis-wrote). I didn't diss you. Was that the one about Raphael helping with some paranormal issues in the Bigfoot thread?

Trust me, you don't want to get too deep into any of the astral plane issues involving Bigfoot without Raphael; that's some rough country, and you need a good guide.


Too late, and I think I could call on old Raph if I needed him! That's why I mentioned those happenings, they're very puzzling. It does seem as if the phenomenon is not purely biological, eh?
You did, however, stick it together w/ Masons, Mayans, and other stuff in a way that seemed dismissive.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', '[')i]Edit: I re-read the Bigfoot posts, and it looks like I also might have dissed you on the comment that Bigfoots have been reported to have run down deer. If that is true, then perhaps Bigfoot's prospects among people might not be so bad. Think about what an amazing linebacker he would make in the NFL--

"This kid's awesome! He weighs 700 pounds, he's 7 feet tall and he can run down any back or receiver in the league. I've heard that when he's hungry he can run down a deer!"

Every Bigfoot presumably also has four years of NCAA eligibility as well, in case they need to polish their game.

Sorry, I'm not messing with you, I just can't get this image out of my head of Bigfoot being this amazing athlete.


OK, maybe I misunderstood your sense of humor, kinda kooky! :lol:
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Re: Shamanism and Chaos magic

Unread postby BigTex » Wed 23 Jan 2008, 23:26:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mercurygirl', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', 'Y')ou misunderstood me (or I mis-wrote). I didn't diss you. Was that the one about Raphael helping with some paranormal issues in the Bigfoot thread?

Trust me, you don't want to get too deep into any of the astral plane issues involving Bigfoot without Raphael; that's some rough country, and you need a good guide.


Too late, and I think I could call on old Raph if I needed him! That's why I mentioned those happenings, they're very puzzling. It does seem as if the phenomenon is not purely biological, eh?
You did, however, stick it together w/ Masons, Mayans, and other stuff in a way that seemed dismissive.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', '[')i]Edit: I re-read the Bigfoot posts, and it looks like I also might have dissed you on the comment that Bigfoots have been reported to have run down deer. If that is true, then perhaps Bigfoot's prospects among people might not be so bad. Think about what an amazing linebacker he would make in the NFL--

"This kid's awesome! He weighs 700 pounds, he's 7 feet tall and he can run down any back or receiver in the league. I've heard that when he's hungry he can run down a deer!"

Every Bigfoot presumably also has four years of NCAA eligibility as well, in case they need to polish their game.

Sorry, I'm not messing with you, I just can't get this image out of my head of Bigfoot being this amazing athlete.


OK, maybe I misunderstood your sense of humor, kinda kooky! :lol:


I would love to see Raphael calmly explain how the Bigfoot is actually an integral part of the whole pole-reversal 2012 countdown. I neither dismiss nor embrace Raphael and his cosmic integration of seemingly anything; I just read until I get tired.

Obviously, the human desire to believe in things like Bigfoot, aliens and God taps into something that is somewhat universal, and that relates back to this thread, I suppose. What's my point? Maybe just that humans are constantly doing the monkeys-with-typewriters routine with our spirituality, hoping that someone will hit on something meaningful and enduring. The problem, of course, is that when we do hit on something good we screw it up in the process of trying to make it accessible to the masses (or maybe I should say in the process of using it to control the masses); after many people have been treated very poorly in the name of religion, we start over with something new.

I would also LOVE to see a Photo Shop of Bigfoot at the end of his freshman year at Oregon striking the Heisman pose.
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Re: Shamanism and Chaos magic

Unread postby BlisteredWhippet » Thu 24 Jan 2008, 16:42:05

I think the transhumanists are interesting.

http://www.empathogens.com/
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Re: Shamanism and Chaos magic

Unread postby threadbear » Thu 24 Jan 2008, 18:22:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BlisteredWhippet', 'I') think the transhumanists are interesting.

http://www.empathogens.com/


Consciousness is expressed through chemical means. Confusing different states of being, or mood, with the chemical pathway used for transmission is a common mistake, one that owes a great deal to the peculiar epistemology of our times.
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Re: Shamanism and Chaos magic

Unread postby JPL » Thu 24 Jan 2008, 20:03:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BlisteredWhippet', 'I') think the transhumanists are interesting.

http://www.empathogens.com/


Yes, I think there may well be links between Serotonin levels & the mystical 'experience'. Certain techniques (meditation etc) can increase serotonin take-up, also certain neurological conditions such as Asperger's syndrome also cause the same effect.

Having said which, I have Asperger's myself, so I think I can definitely say that extra serotonin isn't the answer to peace in our time (although it can make you a bit inner-smiley & anti-social).

So brain chemistry can get you one step up the ladder, maybe, but you have to do the rest of the hard work yourself...

JP

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Re: Shamanism and Chaos magic

Unread postby BigTex » Thu 24 Jan 2008, 20:23:31

Rituals are also key, I think, to preparing the mind for spiritual experiences. Whether it's dancing around a fire (one of my favorites), handling snakes or just jumping around to music, you need that spiritual foreplay.
:)
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