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Shamanism and Chaos magic

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General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.
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Re: Shamanism and Chaos magic

Unread postby mos6507 » Wed 16 Jan 2008, 05:03:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '
')Eventually tho' I came to realize that it takes more than just a hammer to build a house.


Tell me WHY and maybe this will mean something to me.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '
')Precisely, and mos is demonstrating Wilber's Pre-Trans Fallacy quite nicely by equating everything non-rational with the 'lower order' thinking of the pre-rational, magico-mythic worldview.
.... While it is by no means the pinnacle of human awareness, at least it's higher than a large percentage of the population have achieved (which means mos is at least likely not a Republican, tho' of course there are always exceptions). Hopefully he'll eventually grow out of it as I did... :lol:


"Pinnacle of human awareness"?

Are you objective enough to be able to reread this paragraph and understand how elitist and unnecessarily lingo-infused this is? Right now it's all sound and fury signifying nothing. To me the best words to live by are simple. If you have to erect an elaborate essay to explain it, it's probably just that, an artificial construct.

I sure hope after all the meditation and wordy prose you know how to get back out of the clouds long enough prep for peak-oil.
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Re: Shamanism and Chaos magic

Unread postby TWilliam » Wed 16 Jan 2008, 06:44:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '
')Eventually tho' I came to realize that it takes more than just a hammer to build a house.


Tell me WHY and maybe this will mean something to me.

Because my friend, eventually anyone who is genuinely exploring these issues with an open mind and heart (which I assume you are doing since this thread drew your attention) ultimately arrives at the understanding that there are aspects of human experience that empirical science not only hasn't explained, but will never explain because they are not reducible to purely physical phenomena. Awareness is more than mere brain chemistry, and science alone is simply incapable of grasping that fundamental reality.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '
')Precisely, and mos is demonstrating Wilber's Pre-Trans Fallacy quite nicely by equating everything non-rational with the 'lower order' thinking of the pre-rational, magico-mythic worldview.
.... While it is by no means the pinnacle of human awareness, at least it's higher than a large percentage of the population have achieved (which means mos is at least likely not a Republican, tho' of course there are always exceptions). Hopefully he'll eventually grow out of it as I did... :lol:


"Pinnacle of human awareness"?

Are you objective enough to be able to reread this paragraph and understand how elitist ... this is?

Of course it appears elitist; broader perspectives always do to those that don't share them. Rationalism appears just as elitist to those with a magical or mythic mindset. So?


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'R')ight now it's all sound and fury signifying nothing.

Only to those who lack the ears to hear.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')o me the best words to live by are simple.

Simple.

Do you mean like:

Eat.
Sleep.
F#ck.

Simple like that? :lol:

(Sorry, couldn't resist...)


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f you have to erect an elaborate essay to explain it, it's probably just that, an artificial construct.
That is a non sequitur. Just because something is complex, it doesn't necessarily follow that it's false. Life is incredibly complex and varied, and it certainly isn't artificial. It's an unfortunate aspect of the human condition that it's pretty much impossible to directly convey our experience to one another. The best we can do with language is try to sort of 'point' to it. I can have a deep, rich understanding of something held fully in my awareness right here, right now, but it might take an entire volume of text to attempt to convey that understanding. As Taoism puts it, "The Tao which can be named, is not the true Tao."


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') sure hope after all the meditation and wordy prose you know how to get back out of the clouds long enough prep for peak-oil.
I appreciate the sentiment, but I'm quite grounded thank you. Others enjoy NASCAR and recreational shopping for entertainment, I enjoy philosophizing and highly abstract thinking. It's my recreation... :)
"It means buckle your seatbelt, Dorothy, because Kansas? Is goin' bye-bye... "
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Re: Shamanism and Chaos magic

Unread postby threadbear » Wed 16 Jan 2008, 15:27:16

Great posts, Thanks to Blistered Whippet and Moss for joining in.

If anyone would like to branch out from the core discussion and describe how they, personally, have advanced/regressed spiritually, it would be greatly appreciated. The following being my own personal story, for example.

How I Got Beyond the Fundamentalism and Binary nature of the Subconscious and it's Epistemological Traps.(at 17 years of age. Yes it was a VERY GOOD YEAR)

Though I considered myself an Agnostic, when I reflected a bit more thoroughly, I realized that the sub conscious mind, at least my subconscious, divided things very neatly into the categories of true and false, and I was actually deluding myself .

I was actually, processing information about anything esoteric or spiritual through the, "it is false", or atheism, without being conscious, that this was occurring. Furthermore, I realized that it didn't matter how hard I tried to retain a middle ground, my subconscious HAD to process this info, one of two ways. It seemed to be a hard wiring problem.

So I kind of tricked my subconscious, by approaching it logically. I thought, processing the esoteric, as if it's all false, in the absence of unequivocal solid proof that it actually IS false, is no more logical than the other stance. In that case, it becomes a matter of choice. So I chose the other side, almost for the purpose of argument. Believe me, this was no epiphany. It was a purely mental exercise.

But an interesting thing happened when I chose the alternative YES category over the NO. I allowed myself to look at an entire body of knowledge that I would not have even bothered looking at, before. And not religious work, necessarily, but information that seemed as scientifically rigorous as anything else I'd seen.

That seemed to be the key. I gained understanding of the tricks of the subconscious and made a deliberate choice to be receptive to looking at information, that would otherwise repel me. I could only do this by compelling my subconscious to eschew an automatic filing of this kind of information, in the "false" file.
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Re: Shamanism and Chaos magic

Unread postby paimei01 » Wed 16 Jan 2008, 16:07:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('culicomorpha', 'G')reat topic TB...



And this is not limited to new agers either. Even Buddhism, which I find has many excellent points and is a generally good philosophy, can easily lead people to an isolated, passive existence that focuses on personal change, but almost entirely ignores the fact that there are really significant problems in this world that absolutely require changes not limited to individuals.


You are wrong here. Change cannot be imposed, illumination cannot be forced. Why don't people just go to the Zen master and he gives them some precise instructions "do that and that" and they are suddenly illuminated ? Because it is impossible it does not work that way

I too want to change the world, mainly I hope to change people by example. I realized that posting on forums or even speaking with friends about Zen will not change a thing. There is no other way, you may think that I got passive or Buddhism is passive, but it is not. It's about doing all you can and not caring about the result - and continuing to do your stuff, regardless of others, but even so never becoming isolated
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Re: Shamanism and Chaos magic

Unread postby mos6507 » Wed 16 Jan 2008, 16:09:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '
')Because my friend, eventually anyone ... ultimately arrives at the understanding that there are aspects of human experience that empirical science not only hasn't explained, but will never explain because they are not reducible to purely physical phenomena


Tell that to Richard Dawkins.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '
')Of course it appears elitist; broader perspectives always do to those that don't share them. Rationalism appears just as elitist to those with a magical or mythic mindset. So?


Right, but since we are living in a diverse world and you piss people off by categorizing them into your own personal heirarchy of riteousness.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '
')Only to those who lack the ears to hear.


A lot of people are a lot deeper than you think they are. They just have a public and a private persona.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '
')Do you mean like:

Eat.
Sleep.
F#ck.


You can curse the fact that you live in a physical body all you want but in the end to some extent biology is destiny. Deny it at your own peril.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '
')That is a non sequitur. Just because something is complex, it doesn't necessarily follow that it's false.


Just study some of the grand unification theories out there. The more complicated they are, the less credible they appear. I think the same would apply to religions. So many religions out there are full of contradictions and convoluted rules that are like a freaking board game. I just think complexity of this sort is a sign of the soup that always results in the accumulation of ideas from many people over many years to the point where you get further and further away from the truth.

For example, when I first learned about Peak Oil, it finally started to dawn on me that all energy sources on earth trace their way back to the sun (or prior suns in the case of heavy elements). A lot of localized complexity on earth is therefore an illusion. It's just a byproduct of the same primary forces. Everything is a series of causes and effects that converge into the sun and then back to the big bang. So to me, the guardrails of life, as it were, are things like physics. Like the 2nd law of thermodynamics which explains what death really is. If you can understand death, you are well on your way to deciding where you stand on the religious/atheist scale.

So my mental journey has been a constant process of stepping back to reveal the bigger picture. I think this is the biggest problem facing humanity. We only think about what is right in front of our eyes in the here and now. The tragedy of the commons. Short-term thinking. Musing on the possibility of the supernatural is fine, but it doesn't really get us off of the destructive track that humanity is on. If anything it mollifies us into inaction due to some myth of deus ex machina. Following the path of science to get a better understanding of our physical context in the greater scheme of the earth and the universe is the most important breakthrough people need.
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Re: Shamanism and Chaos magic

Unread postby BlisteredWhippet » Wed 16 Jan 2008, 19:30:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('culicomorpha', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BlisteredWhippet', 'P')ersonally I think this thread is full of a lot of pseudo-spiritual BS.


:lol:

I have always liked your posts, especially your critique of the Pacific Northwest, which was the most accurate and insightful post I ever read on this forum.

Yet I'm not willing to dismiss what TWilliam and others have written about Wilbur and other people looking for a larger synthesis (personally I like Gregory Bateson's way of looking at things). I think the key, which smallpoxgirl pointed out, is context. Without the proper context and understanding of our relationship to nature and each other, any set of practices can change from being a constructive practice to a destructive practice.

For example, I'm fairly certain that there are a good number of people who honestly believe they are living a life of of compassion, honor, humility, sacrifice, justice, valor, spirituality, and humility. But like all the rest of us, they are embedded inside of a larger system that depends upon cars, chemicals, massive resource extraction, etc, and that generally, sees the planet as a source of raw materials for meeting their immediate needs. That is to say, we are separate from the environment and it belong to us for exploitation.

None of the virtues you mention directly addresses the importance of our relationship to nature that in my mind, defines a sane way of life. This is a major element I see missing from what many new-agers talk about. Maybe you could argue that humility would dictate that we do as little as possible when it comes to inducing change because we have very limited understanding (my sense is that this is the Native American view), but there are a heck of a lot of "spiritual" people who are going full-steam ahead into what I see as a brick wall of reality.

I don't think the ancient virtues that you mention are enough, and that is my major critique of new agers. There is something missing, and it seems to me that it is fundamentally about our relationship to the physical world. It's all about context, and it's why I am so dubious about abstraction because, by definition, abstraction excludes certain elements of the total context so one can understand anything at all, but these elements cannot be excluded without losing something vital.

The one place, maybe the only place in the western literature where I see a synthesis of these concepts is in ecopsychology, where the individual human is seen and an attempt is made to be understood in relation to the environment - the total environment - the places that we live, the air we breathe, the water we drink, and the political, economic, and social structures in which we exist. They have a long way to go, though, and in the meantime, there remains this emphasis on the individual as a discrete quanta, separate from everything. This approach is almost entirely absent from new-age philosophies, so yea, I agree it is BS.


My point is that, regardless of the veracity of New Age claims, or the cultivation of "special abilities", the bulk of character-building philosophy is accessable and essentially social through the virtues. For example, travelling on the Astral plane is worthless to people that can't do it. But we can reason about moral and ethical questions. We can apply ethical principles to our actions. We can transform our simple day to day choices into actions with moral agency.

Its seems like the system of virtues is better than New Age in just about every way. At the end of the day, the sublime experiences of the individual are of no greater import than the day-to-day moral implications of everyday life. And it is within this multitude of energetic expressions of our intelligences that we transform ourselves and our communities toward Evil or Good, create and destroy.

Regardless of your ability or practice to discern distant places, hidden objects, personality markers, through magick, psychology, neurolinguistic programming, or Organic Chemistry, the virtues remain the same, and character is developed from these elemental parts.

This pathway toward a greater understanding is rather mundane, like commonsense. Anyone who tries can string together the concepts and actions and think differently. The realm of 'special abilities' is not necessary for enlightenment. New Age BS piques people's interest in the grandiosity of these 'special' insights. Who appreciates the truly mundane, the common and everyday evidence that is, to someone who has some basic insights, revealed as prismatic, kaleidoscopic, and profound?

Socrates and Plato had a simple concept: "the Good". Is there a simpler characteristic by which to base our moral decisions? Guide our actions in respect to a future? Moral and ethical thinking develops an individual's ability to see hidden things, to influence good and evil in the world. What is more powerful than a discipline with so much affect?

Some people claim that our fates are predestined, outcomes are set, futures divined, forecasts foretold, that we are all children of destiny. The virtues are a way to take hold of these questions and affect the future actively, to shape it one way or another. At the same time, you are shaping yourself, one way or the other. And these things are all accessible without props, special effects, or esoteric abilities.

I'm saying you could go your whole life without pursuing an out-of-body experience and have a deep, profound existence. The curious thing about OBEs is that, in the long run, they pale in comparison to "plain old" "In-body experiences". You could figure out how to do things backwards to demonstrate your intelligence- or you could simply to things properly forwards. You could toss your crucifix, tarot, astrology, and simply have vivid dreams and infuse your reality with the active idea that you are an independent moral agent in the world. You could spend every day of your life striving to build "the Good" in the world.

I guess the problem is that, for one, this kind of thinking requires some training. And it requires a heavy amount of personal honesty and awareness. Zombies can't do this. Which is why we'll need some powerful wizards to zap them all to dust when they finally get out of hand.
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Re: Shamanism and Chaos magic

Unread postby BlisteredWhippet » Wed 16 Jan 2008, 19:37:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '
')I long ago abandoned the ridiculous notion that 'science' is the only 'real' path to knowledge.


If people can't agree on a standard set of criteria to derive the truth, then there is no point debating anything. Whatever logical arguments you use will also contain bridges of faith (such as references to religious texts, unsubstantiated speculative history, or peyote) which I and many others will reject.


Socrates proved that two people will almost always agree on something called "The good" and agree that there are some things called "virtues" that will result in "The good". His method was conversational dialectic. Its still powerful enough to overcome any kind of magical thinking. I personally love the challenge of chipping away at someone's beliefs, day after day. I have to observe some humility to restrain myself lest I lose the goal (the "Good")- enlightening someone in some way.

Humans don't deserve the ability to simply decide that the world actually works in some fashion just because they believe it. Their burden is to develop the ability to make decisions and act in ways that are good. The former invalidates the latter. Hence the problems today.
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Re: Shamanism and Chaos magic

Unread postby TWilliam » Thu 17 Jan 2008, 03:29:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', 'B')ecause my friend, eventually anyone ... ultimately arrives at the understanding that there are aspects of human experience that empirical science not only hasn't explained, but will never explain because they are not reducible to purely physical phenomena
Tell that to Richard Dawkins.

Dawkins has developed some compelling insights regarding the mechanics of evolution. His work does nothing however to answer the question, "Why does anything exist to evolve?"

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '
')Of course it appears elitist; broader perspectives always do to those that don't share them. Rationalism appears just as elitist to those with a magical or mythic mindset. So?


Right, but since we are living in a diverse world and you piss people off by categorizing them into your own personal heirarchy of riteousness.

Umm, hardly my personal hierarchy. Try reading some developmental psychology - Piaget, Loevinger, Erickson, Kohlberg - you'll find variations on the same theme throughout. Humans develop through a series of stages not only physiologically, but psychologically, emotionally, and cognitively as well. The general world view you have espoused is characteristic of a specific stage of cognitive development (one which only about 35% attain incidentally), and I was doing nothing more than using it as illustrative for purposes of discussion. If you wish to take that personally that's your prerogative, but I doubt that it's a very useful stance.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A') lot of people are a lot deeper than you think they are. They just have a public and a private persona.

Sooo... you're saying you actually agree with my perspective but you're just playing devil's advocate on behalf of scientific reductionism...

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '
')Do you mean like:

Eat.
Sleep.
F#ck.


You can curse the fact that you live in a physical body all you want but in the end to some extent biology is destiny. Deny it at your own peril.
Ummm... that was an example of something called 'humor'. You should try it sometime...

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '
')That is a non sequitur. Just because something is complex, it doesn't necessarily follow that it's false.


Just study some of the grand unification theories out there. The more complicated they are, the less credible they appear. I think the same would apply to religions. So many religions out there are full of contradictions and convoluted rules that are like a freaking board game. I just think complexity of this sort is a sign of the soup that always results in the accumulation of ideas from many people over many years to the point where you get further and further away from the truth.
So organisms can evolve into more complex forms, but ideas and understandings can't...

Mmmm hmmm...

Pardon me for being a bit skeptical about that piece of 'logic'...

(I will agree however about the confusions of religious dogma. But, interestingly, if instead of looking at the exoteric form of the religions - the dogmas, the rituals, etc. - one studies their esoteric substance -their contemplative traditions and associated practices - you will find that they share a remarkable degree of continuity and agreement regarding their experience of the Divine.)

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'F')or example, when I first learned about Peak Oil, it finally started to dawn on me that all energy sources on earth trace their way back to the sun (or prior suns in the case of heavy elements). A lot of localized complexity on earth is therefore an illusion. It's just a byproduct of the same primary forces. Everything is a series of causes and effects that converge into the sun and then back to the big bang. So to me, the guardrails of life, as it were, are things like physics. Like the 2nd law of thermodynamics which explains what death really is. If you can understand death, you are well on your way to deciding where you stand on the religious/atheist scale.
Ok, so I guess this wouldn't be a good time to mention the facts that a) the Big Bang model of creation, while widely accepted, is by no means assured of being accurate (see The Top 30 Problems With the Big Bang if you doubt that statement), b) there are other models that fit the available data, some that resolve issues that Big Bang has been unable to account for, and c) that some of these models posit an ongoing creation with neither beginning nor end point, thus rendering the cosmos an open system and the 2nd law inapplicable, since it only applies to closed systems.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')o my mental journey has been a constant process of stepping back to reveal the bigger picture. I think this is the biggest problem facing humanity. We only think about what is right in front of our eyes in the here and now. The tragedy of the commons. Short-term thinking. Musing on the possibility of the supernatural is fine, but it doesn't really get us off of the destructive track that humanity is on. If anything it mollifies us into inaction due to some myth of deus ex machina. Following the path of science to get a better understanding of our physical context in the greater scheme of the earth and the universe is the most important breakthrough people need.
These are some things on which we agree. All I've been attempting to convey is that the "stepping back to reveal [a] bigger picture" doesn't stop at scientific materialism and reason-logic. I don't see why that should be such a difficult concept to grasp...

----

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BlisteredWhippet', 'S')ocrates proved that two people will almost always agree on something called "The good" and agree that there are some things called "virtues" that will result in "The good".
I agree with that BW, but only to a point. Socrates' contention was formulated largely in the context of his cognitive peers. What constitutes "The Good" to someone at the level of the magical, ego-centric world view, will not be the same as "The Good" as defined by someone who holds a trans-rational, world-centric view, and the ethics, or "virtues" as you term them, that they perceive as serving their respective definitions of "The Good" will likely not be the same.
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Re: Shamanism and Chaos magic

Unread postby TWilliam » Thu 17 Jan 2008, 13:43:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('paimei01', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('culicomorpha', 'G')reat topic TB...



And this is not limited to new agers either. Even Buddhism, which I find has many excellent points and is a generally good philosophy, can easily lead people to an isolated, passive existence that focuses on personal change, but almost entirely ignores the fact that there are really significant problems in this world that absolutely require changes not limited to individuals.


You are wrong here. Change cannot be imposed, illumination cannot be forced. Why don't people just go to the Zen master and he gives them some precise instructions "do that and that" and they are suddenly illuminated ? Because it is impossible it does not work that way

You are correct paimei that change and illumination cannot be forced; change only comes from growth in understanding/consciousness, and that requires effort (in the sense of engaging in some form of practice that aids such growth, not in the sense of strain or exertion). Meditation (any of numerous forms, some more than others) is one of the most effective tools known for accelerating such growth.

I think you've misunderstood however what some of us have been saying about the Eastern traditions. It's not that (for example) Buddhism leads one to passivity per se, it's that many of these teachings translate into the Western world view in such a way that Westerners misunderstand their application and assume they advocate passivity, when as you point out, it's about detachment, which is not the same thing. One still operates in the world, but without being invested in the outcome of one's actions.
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Re: Shamanism and Chaos magic

Unread postby mos6507 » Thu 17 Jan 2008, 17:31:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '
')Dawkins has developed some compelling insights regarding the mechanics of evolution. His work does nothing however to answer the question, "Why does anything exist to evolve?"


That is basically the intelligent design rationalization, that there has to be a "why". My feeling is that the whole concept of meaning or purpose is an artefact of human thought. It isn't a requirement for the universe.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '
')Humans develop through a series of stages not only physiologically, but psychologically, emotionally, and cognitively as well. The general world view you have espoused is characteristic of a specific stage of cognitive development (one which only about 35% attain incidentally)


Why is it necessary for humans to attain these levels? Is someone who just works in a field all his life and is only concerned with his next meal somehow less worty of respect as an individual vs. someone who just zones out all day meditating? What about someone with a limited IQ who could not even follow this forum? This is where it comes off as elitist rather than inclusive.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '
')Sooo... you're saying you actually agree with my perspective but you're just playing devil's advocate on behalf of scientific reductionism...


Deeper thinking is healthy, but I think beyond a certain point an obsession with "higher consciousness" becomes little more than mental masturbation for people with too much time on their hands. Meanwhile those on the lower echelon of your scale are busy trying to earn their next meal building junk for you to buy at Wal-mart.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '
')So organisms can evolve into more complex forms, but ideas and understandings can't...


Organisms aren't as complex as you think given that they are based on a very simple set of chemical building blocks.

Also, ideas by themselves are just creations of the brain. They do not necessarily describe reality just because they are ideas. Somehow you have to prove that they do through some compelling logical process.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '
')you will find that they share a remarkable degree of continuity and agreement regarding their experience of the Divine.


Which could be explained as being a reflection of the "god gene" in the human brain rather some validation of a truth. It just seems to me that your "level" is merely the same as the lower level you disparage, only you have decided to categorize yourself differently because you can express your "god gene" in more flowery terms than the usual bible-belter.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '
')Ok, so I guess this wouldn't be a good time to mention the facts that a) the Big Bang model of creation, while widely accepted, is by no means assured of being accurate


There are lots of global warming and peak oil deniers also.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '
')These are some things on which we agree. All I've been attempting to convey is that the "stepping back to reveal [a] bigger picture" doesn't stop at scientific materialism and reason-logic. I don't see why that should be such a difficult concept to grasp...


The problem is that if you step back too far you fall over the edge into a realm that is so far beyond anything that can be verified that you are left with the equivalent of the microwave background radiation left over from the big bang. It's essentially the noise-floor of perception, like the Twilight Zone, and subjectivity inevitability creeps in. Kind of like in quantum mechanics when you try to measure something and you wind up destroying it in the process. I'm just not sure there is anything of any value to be had from going that far. If you claim to have found something there, you may as well spill the beans because just saying "I'm trans-rational" like you've earned some kind of merit badge does absolutely nothing for me.
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Re: Shamanism and Chaos magic

Unread postby uncarve_db_lock » Fri 18 Jan 2008, 01:27:13

The whole point of trans-rational, or enlightened or whatever you want to call it is that it is beyond comprehension, doesn't mean that you don't feel and have some concepts regarding it. In fact, awareness of this state of being is not even a requisite. I can only imagine the number of people who have been perfectly aligned with the paradoxical reality of infinity, and not even had the slightest intellectual capacity to understand their unique position. I can also imagine people who have achieved a vast understanding of many realms of knowledge concerning the cosmos, self, and all the rest yet had no intuitional gut connection with the answer to the question why. Getting rid of the concept of meaning on a grand universal scale, endows ones life with meaning on not only the real level of day to day existence, but also the infinitely paradoxical cosmic.
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In response to threadbear's invitation to discuss our personal stories, in brief:

My Spiritual Path
Agnostic until 19, mixed with deep appreciation for the concept of "meaning in life", inspired the humor of the Flying Circus. Planned to travel the world to prove to myself that it was round and in the process, meet people, hear their story, and proceed to write a book about the meaning of life. Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance was a good read at 18. At 19 had a class, Rationality of Belief in God, freshman college. Irrational is a fitting word. Experiences of the sacred and profane changed me forever. I still wonder. College dropout, after studying Philosophy, Religion, Music. The world of inevitable work landed me in the historical restoration trade and also a semi-pro musician. Fixed a lot of buildings, most notably, Ceres; the Goddess of Agriculture, a statue atop the Statehouse, where I reside. Played a lot of music to a lot of people,

http://www.myspace.com/manifestnextome

Mostly paradoxically real tunes about metaphysically hopeful souls in an apocalyptic world.
Since then, worked on an organic vegetable farm, managed the facilities of a 25,000 square foot food co-op, learned about peak oil, started into the carpentry trade to learn how to build/unbuild the principles of a house, gained a much better perspective on how the human made system works/doesn't work, become a second amendment citizen, moved from the city (50,000) apartment to 75 acres of fertile river valley with six feet of topsoil and extensive neighboring forests, all the while having only a belief in myself (still unknown) and God, Tao, Brahma ( whatever you would like to call the infinitely paradoxical, etc, etc, that cant be spoken of) and not having much of a defining line between the two.

The paradox of the paradox, is it that it is not a paradox?
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Re: Shamanism

Unread postby POAlex » Sat 19 Jan 2008, 01:43:45

If you ever want to talk about it, let me know.

I would avoid it all.

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Re: Shamanism

Unread postby uNkNowN ElEmEnt » Sat 19 Jan 2008, 05:40:45

Even the simplest things can be a profound journey if you are ready for them and they speak to you. Its up to each of us to find our own paths and if that's the right one for you, (and you are the only one who can judge that) then it doesn't matter what anyone else says about it. I have used it as a tool, and benefitted greatly, but its only one of many tool.
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Re: Shamanism

Unread postby mos6507 » Sat 19 Jan 2008, 06:50:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DrBang', 'H')e saw things very differently from that point onwards.


In what way?
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Re: Shamanism and Chaos magic

Unread postby threadbear » Sat 19 Jan 2008, 16:07:18

Thanks for all of the great input. I wonder how some of you feel about the resurgence of interest in New Age ideas, as a social force, from a more anthropological view point?

Blistered Whippet touched on the theme of morality, and he has a point, I think, regardless of what one actually believes in. New Age tends towards the amoral, the asocial. Adherents could be be at risk, going forward, if they haven't established strong social ties in the mundane world of day to day life.

Authentic shamanism interests me because the focus of the shaman seems to be helping detect food for the tribe and as a kind of healer for the tribe. But many modern day enthusiasts assume that tribal societies structured around shamanism are more noble, more genteel, superior in some way. I wonder if this is so.

I question the Judeo-Christian belief system, for several different reasons, but like to give it credit where credit is due.

Does anyone who isn't Christian have anything positive to say about Judeo-Christianity's effects on the general culture?
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Re: Shamanism

Unread postby threadbear » Sat 19 Jan 2008, 16:13:35

I think it might be a good idea to move to the Shamanism and Chaos Magic thread, and let this one die a natural death! What do you think? Can we transfer this discussion? Hi Unknown Element!
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Re: Shamanism

Unread postby TheTurtle » Sat 19 Jan 2008, 16:59:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'I') think it might be a good idea to move to the Shamanism and Chaos Magic thread, and let this one die a natural death! What do you think? Can we transfer this discussion? Hi Unknown Element!


I merged the Shamanism thread from the Psychology forum to this thread.

Carry on the great discussion. :)
“Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves.” (Ted Perry)
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Re: Shamanism and Chaos magic

Unread postby bodigami » Sat 19 Jan 2008, 19:17:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('culicomorpha', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('zensui', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('culicomorpha', '(')...)


If practiced improperly. The Noble Path of Buddhism is divided in 3 main areas: Wisdom, Ethical Conduct and Meditation. For Ethical Conduct a social life is necessary. Also, there is the Middle Path in which the stoicism and hedonist extremes are seen as Samsaric (not leading to Nirvana). Those that call themselves Buddhists but follow a meditation only and stoic life does not know basic Buddhism.
(...)

I was struck by how easily what he said could be misconstrued by someone raised in Western culture. For most Westerners, I think a much more concrete religion, e.g. paganism or some sort of Earth-based religion, maybe deep ecology, is necessary to counter the destruction of the world and its inhabitants. Mainly this is because we have all grown up under capitalism, and under capitalism, nothing on Earth is sacred. Not the trees, not the air, not the water, not the other sentient beings, not our relationships. Everything is up for sale, and the only thing that ever reaches the level of "profound sacred truth" is ideas, myths like: the market will solve all our problems, technology will fix it, economic determinism is common-sense, you will get ahead if you work hard, etc, etc.

Pratitya-samutpada or interdependant arising is a Buddhist principle, everything is interdependant including all that is life (the ecosystem). It's a basis, at least in intentionality and abstraction for ecology.

Trees are sacred in Buddhism too, because of being great places to meditate. "a tree gives shadow even to those that are cutting it".

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('culicomorpha', '
')Also, I think most people in the U.S. particularly are not familiar with applying abstract concepts to concrete problems. You see this very clearly in any physics I class, where students are asked to apply fairly simple abstract ideas to concrete problems, and you find that many many people simply can never bridge this gap. So in general, I think highly abstract philosophical religious beliefs are not going to work very well here. Maybe they work well in Tibet where there are few distractions and there is a common culture.


That's a problem with the hamster culture in the USA and most capitalist western countries: your life is worthless, but work hard to buy our crap. I don't care about failed systems, western religions have failed humanity.

Is buddhism "too abstract" when Nirvana, the main most trascendent goal, is defined as pure happiness free from suffering? Is meditation such a difficult undertaking when it is basically relaxation of the verbal mind by focusing on the breath and contempation on nature?
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Re: Shamanism and Chaos magic

Unread postby bodigami » Sat 19 Jan 2008, 19:25:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '
')I long ago abandoned the ridiculous notion that 'science' is the only 'real' path to knowledge.


If people can't agree on a standard set of criteria to derive the truth, then there is no point debating anything. Whatever logical arguments you use will also contain bridges of faith (such as references to religious texts, unsubstantiated speculative history, or peyote) which I and many others will reject.


within a scientific context, discussions must keep scientific in nature. But that doesn't mean that other knowledge, like religion and philoshopy, is crap in itself. Science doesn't play well with others ...and for the matter neither does other classes of knowledge, which is a shame.
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Re: Shamanism and Chaos magic

Unread postby bodigami » Sat 19 Jan 2008, 20:13:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '(')...)
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '
')Humans develop through a series of stages not only physiologically, but psychologically, emotionally, and cognitively as well. The general world view you have espoused is characteristic of a specific stage of cognitive development (one which only about 35% attain incidentally)


Why is it necessary for humans to attain these levels? Is someone who just works in a field all his life and is only concerned with his next meal somehow less worty of respect as an individual vs. someone who just zones out all day meditating? What about someone with a limited IQ who could not even follow this forum? This is where it comes off as elitist rather than inclusive.
(...)


a certain level of intelligence is not needed for meditation, in fact someone with too much verbal rationalization may be hindered because of it. Meditation is about cultivating wisdom not intelligence.
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