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Shamanism and Chaos magic

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Re: Shamanism and Chaos magic

Postby bodigami » Mon 14 Jan 2008, 00:26:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', 'M')ost people blend the 2012 stuff to astrology, biblical, and Chariots of the Gods stuff.

So? Just because you personally can't stomach some of the implications that some people draw from these (and other) diverse sources doesn't mean they're necessarily wrong. In fact I just finished reading a book who's author makes a very strong case for the idea that the zodiac and the various stories associated with it's characters, far from being primitive anthropomorphisms of various star groupings, are actually part of a highly sophisticated cryptogram that describes a physics of continuous creation that solves a number of the problems associated with the Big Bang theory. Other aspects of it also apparently serves as both a memorial of and a warning about a repeatedly occurring phenomenon of galactic core explosions that are responsible for massive environmental upheavals, widespread extinctions and accelerated mutation rates among surviving populations (a likely solution to the evolutionary puzzle of so-called 'punctuated equilibrium'). The latest of these appears to have been the trigger for the abrupt end of the last Ice Age.

There are literally hundreds of cultural stories from around the globe that describe, often in great detail, events in the heavens and subsequent cataclysms such as widespread conflagration (fire) and/or flooding, both of which there is geologic evidence for. Recent astrophysical research indicates that many aspects of these 'mythological' events are consistent with exactly what likely impacts of such a galactic 'blast wave' passing through our solar system would look like. There is also some speculation that the precession of the equinox (the 'wobble' of the Earth's rotational axis) may actually be entrained to this phenomenon, so don't be too hasty in dismissing things such as the 2012 Mayan calendar 'end date' as 'mere superstitious myth'.


With this I concur. The Mayan calendar and the solstice of 2012 are "in line" with current astronomical knowledge.
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Re: Shamanism and Chaos magic

Postby TWilliam » Mon 14 Jan 2008, 02:02:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('zensui', 'N')ot to sound arrogant, but this text is unwise. It's a critic of a non-issue, a critic based on assumptions and misunderstandings of trascendence. Made and repeated by someone that doubts of the potential of human mind and the potential for an evolution of conciousness as a whole.


Doubts the potential for evolution of consciousness? How does my post imply that? It's a discussion of just that fact, namely that Consciousness evolves, illustrated in this case by the fact that every single human relives in the process of individual maturation what is essentially the same evolutionary process that human Consciousness in the aggregate has experienced during the course of it's history. That Consciousness evolves is not something I doubt, and it's certainly not something Wilber doubts.

I'm also not sure where you get the idea that it's a critique, or what it's supposed to be a critique of. I will admit it's a highly condensed attempt to convey what is an extremely rich understanding of a complex subject, but the fact is it's based on understanding drawn from many different sources, both West and East; it's neither my idea nor Wilber's, tho' he may be one of the first in modern times to recognize and articulate the confusion between pre- and trans-personal.

---

Regarding Buddhism: Buddhism (as I understand it) is essentially a dualistic philosophy. It sees a distinction between Emptiness and Form, and as such it considers detachment from the world of Maya and Absorption into the Ultimate Ground of Being to be a primary goal of Practice.

Advaita Vedanta, on the other hand, is an example of a non-dual philosophy which seeks to move beyond Absorption and fully embody that Infinite Awareness within and as Form. It recognizes that ultimately neither is distinct, and as such appears to me to be a more advanced discipline.

Kingcoal while on some days I would tend to agree with you that planetary escape via technology is ultimately our only hope for survival in a long-term sense (assuming of course that we don't extinguish ourselves in the near future), there are other times when I'm not so sure. While I don't subscribe to The Secret's version of "we make the world", I do tend to believe that ultimately Consciousness is the underlying foundation of Creation, and I also tend to believe that there is a possibility that we could eventually evolve to the point where we can directly manipulate material existence with Awareness, such that if we did actually wish to continue in physical form such things as galactic explosions, comets etc. would be of no concern.
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Re: Shamanism and Chaos magic

Postby TWilliam » Mon 14 Jan 2008, 02:11:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('zensui', 'W')ith this I concur. The Mayan calendar and the solstice of 2012 are "in line" with current astronomical knowledge.


I should hasten to add that while galactic core explosions are a cyclic phenomenon, evidence from deep sea sediments, polar ice cores, etc. suggests that they do not have a precise period (if I recall they can vary by 1,000 years or more), so the likelihood that an explosion wave will be arriving exactly in 2012 is minimal at best. I think the important point that our ancestors were trying to get across is that they do recur on a relatively regular basis.
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Re: Shamanism and Chaos magic

Postby mos6507 » Mon 14 Jan 2008, 17:36:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '
')So? Just because you personally can't stomach some of the implications that some people draw from these (and other) diverse sources doesn't mean they're necessarily wrong.


I use this yardstick in measuring the credibility of these sorts of things:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_Razor

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '
')In fact I just finished reading a book who's author makes a very strong case for...


There is a cottage industry for speculative fiction of this sort. Because it makes money, people are motivated to write this stuff. It's actually quite simple to fabricate theories like these out of thin air. It's not easy to make them hold up to scrutiny. Few people know anything about the scientific method. But they know what "feels" scientific. So if you deliver a message that feels researched and tells you what you want to hear, you're more likely to believe it. That's true whether it's Intelligent Design, Global Warming deniers, conspiracy theorists, and so on. I find it entertaining to research things like this, and many of the ideas would be appealing if true. I stop short of "believing" them lock stock and barrel.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '
')There are literally hundreds of cultural stories from around the globe that describe, often in great detail, events in the heavens and subsequent cataclysms such as widespread conflagration (fire) and/or flooding, both of which there is geologic evidence for.


So what?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '
')axis) may actually be entrained to this phenomenon, so don't be too hasty in dismissing things such as the 2012 Mayan calendar 'end date' as 'mere superstitious myth'.


A lot of synchronicities seem more menacing than they are. I remember when all the planets lined up which was like a once in a million year deal and nothing happened.

You've got to be really careful about blending religion and astronomy. The Heaven's Gate guys chopped their balls off and thought they'd hitch a ride on a comet after drinking the kool-aid.

I'd rather get my info from strictly scientific sources.

Here is the kind of thing you won't see addressed in these one-sided books:

http://www.astunit.com/astrocrud/2012.htm
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Re: Shamanism and Chaos magic

Postby oowolf » Mon 14 Jan 2008, 17:51:10

How 'bout plant shamanism? Like to hear feedback on the work of Buhner, Montgomery, etc (Secret Teachings of Plants; Lost Language; Plant Spirit Healing...). Vibrations and entheogens...??
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Re: Shamanism and Chaos magic

Postby threadbear » Mon 14 Jan 2008, 17:54:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '
') The Heaven's Gate guys chopped their balls off and thought they'd hitch a ride on a comet after drinking the kool-aid.


We all have to beware of gurus who appear to be wise and all-knowing, but turn out to be nothing more than benevolent dick-takers. :lol:
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Re: Shamanism and Chaos magic

Postby bodigami » Mon 14 Jan 2008, 18:09:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('zensui', '(')...)


Doubts the potential for evolution of consciousness? How does my post imply that? It's a discussion of just that fact, namely that Consciousness evolves, illustrated in this case by the fact that every single human relives in the process of individual maturation what is essentially the same evolutionary process that human Consciousness in the aggregate has experienced during the course of it's history. That Consciousness evolves is not something I doubt, and it's certainly not something Wilber doubts.

I'm also not sure where you get the idea that it's a critique, or what it's supposed to be a critique of. I will admit it's a highly condensed attempt to convey what is an extremely rich understanding of a complex subject, but the fact is it's based on understanding drawn from many different sources, both West and East; it's neither my idea nor Wilber's, tho' he may be one of the first in modern times to recognize and articulate the confusion between pre- and trans-personal.


I misunderstood it as a critique of the Wilber's model...

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '
')Regarding Buddhism: Buddhism (as I understand it) is essentially a dualistic philosophy. It sees a distinction between Emptiness and Form, and as such it considers detachment from the world of Maya and Absorption into the Ultimate Ground of Being to be a primary goal of Practice.

Advaita Vedanta, on the other hand, is an example of a non-dual philosophy which seeks to move beyond Absorption and fully embody that Infinite Awareness within and as Form. It recognizes that ultimately neither is distinct, and as such appears to me to be a more advanced discipline.

(...)


Dualism is seen in Buddhism as Samsaric. Emptyness is not a path to Nirvana as exposed by Buda Gautama, it's a later philosophy of Nagarjuna.
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Re: Shamanism

Postby BlisteredWhippet » Mon 14 Jan 2008, 18:25:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BlisteredWhippet', 'A') more winding, twisting path to a psychological dead-end human culture never invented. A guy with feathers in his hair is just another bird-brained idiot, not the high-flying avatar of his imagination. Shamanism requires the patronage of the credulous, and could fairly be described wholly in those terms. But don't take my word for it- attend the Seminar, only $159 for the weekend.... and be sure to take home some fake/authentic trinkets...


I went to the workshop put on by Perkins because I wanted to meet him, mainly. The Shamanism he was teaching, I've been familiar with all of my life. I didn't know what it was called, when I was child and spent a few years in abject terror, feeling like an oddball.

There is likely a physiological predisposition to this state of being that people are blessed/cursed with. Many of them, in modern society, likely ended up as psychiatric patients, in the past. The one positive aspect of the resurgence of interest in these subjects is it allows people who were tormented, in the past, to see their "affliction" as a mixed blessing, at the very least.

Whippet, Some of the people who attended this workshop were bliss ninnies, but some weren't. A very few were the real thing, , very psychic individuals who worked as healers. I appreciate what you're saying though, because the stereotype you describe is an appropriate one.


"Psychic" is an attribute that I dispute the legitimacy of. I understand that people call the sympathetic, the empathetic, the intuitive, the creative, and the suggestive, "psychic", but only because they misunderstand the primary definition of the former terms as actual defined ability. Most people think they're sympathetic, empathetic, creative, intuitive, and surely not prone to suggestion. Of course, the vast majority are wrong on each count. Most people can't define these terms to any distinction if you pressed them on it.

I remain convinced that shamanism is just suggestion. Its ridiculousness is inherent in its presuppositions of fate, destiny, fortune, divination, and so forth. Its not a pathway to knowledge or wisdom even if it veers off track and something is learned or gained by osmosis. Its a way of knowing something without knowing how you might be knowing it, or knowing some effect without the slightest clue how the causes were arranged. That leads to plenty of "false positive" type results, and the suggestive interpretation of the practice is commonly of the type "remembering the hits, and forgetting the misses". Its not as reliable as the alternatives in terms of real diverse effect or results. So why flog this approach to reality?

My essential beef is this: what value does it have if it doesn't result in the development of a solid foundation in any of the traits or abilities described above? The faith healers give way to medical doctors, the alchemists give way to the chemists, the astrologers to the astronomers. Spend 2 hours with Carl Sagan in ""Cosmos and he'll blow your mind far more than sitting with the stone and crystal set.... unless you're not creative, intuitive, or empathetic enough to understand the implications.

Don't get me wrong, Shamanism is an okay pit-stop for people who like getting their minds blown. But after the experience is digested, there isn't much to it, and much more potent experiences await out in plain old direct experience, or even the dream state. I find shamans to be curious, and I enjoy them. I appreciate their derelict thought patterns and respect their devotion to scrambling their personalities in service toward the whole of human cultural experience. But I wouldn't recommend that path to anyone and if shamanism disappeared from the planet tomorrow, it wouldn't make a bit of difference. There is nothing so valuable and unique in the practice to cause a sinkhole in universe of human wisdom. In fact, it would probably drag a whole lot of delusion with it, so a net positive might result.
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Re: Shamanism and Chaos magic

Postby TWilliam » Tue 15 Jan 2008, 00:50:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', 'I') use this yardstick in measuring the credibility of these sorts of things:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_Razor


Oh please mos. Occam is a poor yardstick, most often used as nothing more than a convenient excuse to avoid doing one's own research. It's merely a suggestion, not some kind of empirical test, and frankly it's frequently misapplied; people seem to all too often ignore it's caveat other things being equal, meaning of competing theories whichever is better supported by evidence is to be preferred, even if it is the more complex of the two.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '
')In fact I just finished reading a book who's author makes a very strong case for...


There is a cottage industry for speculative fiction of this sort.


Speculative fiction? Ummm nooo... try Ph.D thesis from a degree holder in both physics and systems science, written in the late 70s, which included 12 predictions that have since been confirmed.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '
')There are literally hundreds of cultural stories from around the globe that describe, often in great detail, events in the heavens and subsequent cataclysms such as widespread conflagration (fire) and/or flooding, both of which there is geologic evidence for.


So what?

So such stories add documentary evidence to the already substantial evidence derived from empirical research that such events have occurred repeatedly in Earth's past, and that humans have been around long enough to have passed through at least one such episode.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '
')axis) may actually be entrained to this phenomenon, so don't be too hasty in dismissing things such as the 2012 Mayan calendar 'end date' as 'mere superstitious myth'.

A lot of synchronicities seem more menacing than they are. I remember when all the planets lined up which was like a once in a million year deal and nothing happened.

Apples and oranges. Synchronicity is a perceived coincidence, entrainment is a scientifically established phenomenon observed in both mechanical and energetic systems, and planetary alignments relate to neither.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')ou've got to be really careful about blending religion and astronomy. The Heaven's Gate guys chopped their balls off and thought they'd hitch a ride on a comet after drinking the kool-aid.

How do you know they didn't?

Anyway you seem to be missing the point that information that has been handed down as (sometimes, tho' by no means always religious) tradition may have originated as direct empirical observation - that is, scientific data transmitted orally through metaphor. Hardly a novel idea; we still use such methods today. A common memory training technique is to take a list of data items, for example a grocery list, and weave a 'silly story' that incorporates them. It's actually a very effective technique once one becomes proficient at it.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')'d rather get my info from strictly scientific sources.

Then you are seriously limiting you potential for understanding...

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')ere is the kind of thing you won't see addressed in these one-sided books:

http://www.astunit.com/astrocrud/2012.htm

Not quite sure what you're getting at here...
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Re: Shamanism and Chaos magic

Postby culicomorpha » Tue 15 Jan 2008, 03:47:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', 'N')ew Age is the spiritual equivalent of multicultural capitalism. It's all about scavenging other cultures to find hints of spiritually truth and expropriate them divorced from the cultural context.


I couldn't agree more. And perhaps it is not a coincidence that new-age beliefs are developing most in a country that has the strongest myths about multicultural capitalism. They seem to go hand-in-hand. The new-age beliefs and adherents present practically no threat to business as usual. In fact, they spend good money "improving themselves" as you point out.

Focus on yourself but don't worry about that razed forest, or the polluted air, or the massive inequality. Don't worry... be happy.

It seems to me a recapitulation of the basic premise of psychotherapy. *YOU* are the problem, not the system, not the government, not the destroyed environment, not the corporations, YOU. Change yourself and everything will be alright.

What I really wish is that there was a way to restore functional working communities, akin to what native folks have, but it seems like an impossible task, given they hyperfocus on individual existence. I don't see that in new-age philosophies. Like you said, people will pay $3k to go to a retreat with Deepak Chopra or go on a vision quest, but these things will not restore the lost and forgotten communities.
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Re: Shamanism and Chaos magic

Postby culicomorpha » Tue 15 Jan 2008, 04:12:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('zensui', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('culicomorpha', 'G')reat topic TB...
(...)
And this is not limited to new agers either. Even Buddhism, which I find has many excellent points and is a generally good philosophy, can easily lead people to an isolated, passive existence that focuses on personal change, but almost entirely ignores the fact that there are really significant problems in this world that absolutely require changes not limited to individuals.
(...)


If practiced improperly. The Noble Path of Buddhism is divided in 3 main areas: Wisdom, Ethical Conduct and Meditation. For Ethical Conduct a social life is necessary. Also, there is the Middle Path in which the stoicism and hedonist extremes are seen as Samsaric (not leading to Nirvana). Those that call themselves Buddhists but follow a meditation only and stoic life does not know basic Buddhism.


Sorry zensui, I didn't mean to imply that the problem was with Buddhism as a philosophy and practice. It's just that it can easily be interpreted that way by Westerners as smallpoxgirl and threadbear pointed out.

Although I have some comprehension of the teachings, I am afraid to say that putting those very abstract ideas into concrete action has been difficult for me personally, so please do not take my comments as a slam against Buddhism.

BTW, last week I got a DVD set from the library of a teaching of the four noble truths that the Dalai Lama gave in the UK several years ago. That was in my mind when I responded to TBs OP.

I was struck by how easily what he said could be misconstrued by someone raised in Western culture. For most Westerners, I think a much more concrete religion, e.g. paganism or some sort of Earth-based religion, maybe deep ecology, is necessary to counter the destruction of the world and its inhabitants. Mainly this is because we have all grown up under capitalism, and under capitalism, nothing on Earth is sacred. Not the trees, not the air, not the water, not the other sentient beings, not our relationships. Everything is up for sale, and the only thing that ever reaches the level of "profound sacred truth" is ideas, myths like: the market will solve all our problems, technology will fix it, economic determinism is common-sense, you will get ahead if you work hard, etc, etc.

Also, I think most people in the U.S. particularly are not familiar with applying abstract concepts to concrete problems. You see this very clearly in any physics I class, where students are asked to apply fairly simple abstract ideas to concrete problems, and you find that many many people simply can never bridge this gap. So in general, I think highly abstract philosophical religious beliefs are not going to work very well here. Maybe they work well in Tibet where there are few distractions and there is a common culture.
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Re: Shamanism and Chaos magic

Postby DrBang » Tue 15 Jan 2008, 04:49:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')mallPoxGirl, Twilliam, Dr.Bang, Iatto, It's actually almost a physical relief to read the thoughts of people who share the same ideas. You've massaged the knots out of my neck. Thanks


You are most welcome. It can be a relief to understand that you are not the only one who thinks in a certain way. I used to really get the shits walking around amongst a pack of sleepwalkers. Once I made my peace with the fact I am simply different (especially to those I work with), similar people started appearing out of the woodwork. Each different in their own way but respectful of what I am and what I am becoming.

:roll: :roll:
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Re: Shamanism and Chaos magic

Postby TWilliam » Tue 15 Jan 2008, 17:19:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('culicomorpha', 'I') couldn't agree more. And perhaps it is not a coincidence that new-age beliefs are developing most in a country that has the strongest myths about multicultural capitalism. They seem to go hand-in-hand. The new-age beliefs and adherents present practically no threat to business as usual. In fact, they spend good money "improving themselves" as you point out.

Focus on yourself but don't worry about that razed forest, or the polluted air, or the massive inequality. Don't worry... be happy.

It seems to me a recapitulation of the basic premise of psychotherapy. *YOU* are the problem, not the system, not the government, not the destroyed environment, not the corporations, YOU. Change yourself and everything will be alright.


You seem to have a good grasp of the situation culico. The only caution I would offer is don't get sucked into the tendency (very common today when looking at these issues) to throw the baby out with the bathwater. There is a lot of confusion and misunderstanding in the West when it comes to Eastern spiritual philosophy, and much of New Age thought especially is notorious for compounding the problem, but that doesn't mean that these traditions are therefore of no use to us. It's true that there is a great deal of 'cultural window-dressing' that doesn't translate well to the Western mindset, but many of the actual practices have definite benefits.

Wilber points out that meditation especially is the only 'psychological tool' that to date has been empirically shown to promote genuine growth of consciousness. He's clear that it may not be the only one that does so, but it's the only one that so far has actually been proven to. One of the reasons I like his work so much is that he's probably one of the most comprehensive and articulate thinkers out there when it comes to delineating both the pitfalls and the benefits of the various human philosophies, both East and West, as well as showing clearly where many of the misunderstandings lie.

I do believe that you have one thing backwards however; psychotherapy's 'you're the problem' is actually the West's re-discovery of what the East has maintained for millennia - framed differently of course, and also subject to misunderstanding. New Age is probably guiltiest of all for taking these advanced understandings and infantilizing them into pre-rational magico-mythic 'tools' for 'creating your life' (ala The Secret). I've maintained for a number of years now that one of the biggest misunderstandings at the root of a lot of this revolves around the Eastern concept of maya, frequently translated as illusion in the West. Westerners have taken this concept to mean that the world isn't real and that we create it with our minds (this is greatly simplified), but illusion does not mean something 'unreal'; what it means is something mis-perceived, and it is those false perceptions that are 'mind-created'. A simple example is that we tend to think of our bodies as these solid, sort of permanent objects that we walk around in experiencing life, and that "the body I have today is the same body I've had all my life", when the reality is that it's not the 'same' body at all. Every single atom in your body is replaced over a span of something like two years or so. Not just the cells, the very atoms; it's seeming permanence is an illusion.

Anyway once again, great thread TB, and you're welcome. Yes, it's nice to know that there are a few of us out there... :wink:
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Re: Shamanism and Chaos magic

Postby mos6507 » Tue 15 Jan 2008, 18:02:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '
')Not quite sure what you're getting at here...


Didn't think you would. It doesn't suit your opinions.
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Re: Shamanism and Chaos magic

Postby BlisteredWhippet » Tue 15 Jan 2008, 18:26:16

Personally I think this thread is full of a lot of pseudo-spiritual BS.

I'm a spiritual being having a human experience.

Look: there are 8 distinct virtues that people can cultivate. These are essentially social values:

Compassion
Honor
Humility
Sacrifice
Justice
Valor
Spirituality
Humility

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
') * Honesty is respect for Truth
* Compassion is Love of others
* Valor is Courage to stand up against risks
* Justice is Truth, tempered by Love
* Sacrifice is Courage to give oneself in name of Love
* Honor is Courage to seek and uphold the Truth
* Spirituality is to seek Truth, Love and Courage from one's own self and the world around
* Humility is the opposite of Pride - the absence of Truth, Love or Courage



The practice of meditating and living your life in alignment with the virtues is the only way to build your strength of character. It results in a person who radiates "good".

I'm not saying all the pablum and twattle about new-age/self-centric experiential BS is going to necessarily make you not as "good" as you could be, but the reality is that you are just confusing the hell out of yourself. The fact is the path is clear. The hard part is following the path.

The problem with "new age" et al. is that they expect their little 2%-10% fellowship to really have ANYTHING useful to SAY to the rest of humanity.

The virtues are understandable, appliable, have measurable and real benefits. "New Age" is bullshit. IMHO.
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Re: Shamanism and Chaos magic

Postby TWilliam » Tue 15 Jan 2008, 19:43:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '
')Not quite sure what you're getting at here...


Didn't think you would. It doesn't suit your opinions.


Mos if you're referring to the fact that the author of the site is attempting to demonstrate the non-significance of the specific 2012 date, then at least as it applies to the specific author I was discussing, it happens to echo his sentiments. He's quite clear that galactic core explosions, while cyclic, are simply not that predictable. Their regularity is only relative in a cosmic sense - i.e. with variance that can span thousands of years.

I do seem to recall him mentioning however that based on the geologic evidence, we are at the 'late' end of that variance right now - that is to say we're due - but that still means it could be anywhere between now and several centuries before the next one hits.


As far as that particular site and his 'critique' of Jenkins (whom I've never read incidentally), I see by his own admission,
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') am not going to attempt to go into detail with respect to all of his attempted refutations.

In other words, "I'm going to utilize the logical fallacy of selected instances to convince you that everything he says is worthless."

Oh and by the way, my opinions are subject to constant revision when warranted. I seek truth, accuracy and comprehensiveness in my understanding as much as possible; that's why I long ago abandoned the ridiculous notion that 'science' is the only 'real' path to knowledge. Scientific method is a useful tool as long as one recognizes it's limitations and appropriate sphere of application; 'science' as an ideology is simply another religion.
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Re: Shamanism and Chaos magic

Postby mos6507 » Tue 15 Jan 2008, 20:05:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '
')I long ago abandoned the ridiculous notion that 'science' is the only 'real' path to knowledge.


If people can't agree on a standard set of criteria to derive the truth, then there is no point debating anything. Whatever logical arguments you use will also contain bridges of faith (such as references to religious texts, unsubstantiated speculative history, or peyote) which I and many others will reject.
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Re: Shamanism and Chaos magic

Postby uncarve_db_lock » Tue 15 Jan 2008, 23:17:04

Quality discussion but I might add that as has been previously stated, we are starting to delve into the non-rational realms in which reason and therefore logical communication become blurry.
Having read most of Ken Wilbers works, I agree that he probably has one of the better perspectives on humanity and consciousness in general.
As far as the new agers go, yea there are a lot of people out there parading around supposedly working on their "Self" yet they have only the faintest inkling of what their true "Self" is. According to Wilber, and many ancient systems ranging from Taoism to Christianity, there is nothing that is not paradoxically self. For in a non-dual existence, it is one in essence and two in existence. Seeking to harmonize one's "True Self" then means not only one's physical self, but also the species, the planet, the cosmos, etc.

The paradox of the paradox, is it that it is not a paradox?
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Re: Shamanism and Chaos magic

Postby culicomorpha » Wed 16 Jan 2008, 03:01:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BlisteredWhippet', 'P')ersonally I think this thread is full of a lot of pseudo-spiritual BS.


:lol:

I have always liked your posts, especially your critique of the Pacific Northwest, which was the most accurate and insightful post I ever read on this forum.

Yet I'm not willing to dismiss what TWilliam and others have written about Wilbur and other people looking for a larger synthesis (personally I like Gregory Bateson's way of looking at things). I think the key, which smallpoxgirl pointed out, is context. Without the proper context and understanding of our relationship to nature and each other, any set of practices can change from being a constructive practice to a destructive practice.

For example, I'm fairly certain that there are a good number of people who honestly believe they are living a life of of compassion, honor, humility, sacrifice, justice, valor, spirituality, and humility. But like all the rest of us, they are embedded inside of a larger system that depends upon cars, chemicals, massive resource extraction, etc, and that generally, sees the planet as a source of raw materials for meeting their immediate needs. That is to say, we are separate from the environment and it belong to us for exploitation.

None of the virtues you mention directly addresses the importance of our relationship to nature that in my mind, defines a sane way of life. This is a major element I see missing from what many new-agers talk about. Maybe you could argue that humility would dictate that we do as little as possible when it comes to inducing change because we have very limited understanding (my sense is that this is the Native American view), but there are a heck of a lot of "spiritual" people who are going full-steam ahead into what I see as a brick wall of reality.

I don't think the ancient virtues that you mention are enough, and that is my major critique of new agers. There is something missing, and it seems to me that it is fundamentally about our relationship to the physical world. It's all about context, and it's why I am so dubious about abstraction because, by definition, abstraction excludes certain elements of the total context so one can understand anything at all, but these elements cannot be excluded without losing something vital.

The one place, maybe the only place in the western literature where I see a synthesis of these concepts is in ecopsychology, where the individual human is seen and an attempt is made to be understood in relation to the environment - the total environment - the places that we live, the air we breathe, the water we drink, and the political, economic, and social structures in which we exist. They have a long way to go, though, and in the meantime, there remains this emphasis on the individual as a discrete quanta, separate from everything. This approach is almost entirely absent from new-age philosophies, so yea, I agree it is BS.

And don't even get me started on a critique of logic and science here, mos6507... it wouldn't be pretty... But if you want to start another thread, I'd be happy to add my $0.02 worth.
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Re: Shamanism and Chaos magic

Postby TWilliam » Wed 16 Jan 2008, 03:18:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', 'I')f people can't agree on a standard set of criteria to derive the truth, then there is no point debating anything.

I don't disagree that science is a useful tool. Where we differ is in your assertion (or at least implication) that it's the only useful tool in the box. I held that belief for a time as well, when I was younger, so I can understand the perspective. Eventually tho' I came to realize that it takes more than just a hammer to build a house.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('uncarve_db_lock', 'Q')uality discussion but I might add that as has been previously stated, we are starting to delve into the non-rational realms in which reason and therefore logical communication become blurry.


Precisely, and mos is demonstrating Wilber's Pre-Trans Fallacy quite nicely by equating everything non-rational with the 'lower order' thinking of the pre-rational, magico-mythic worldview. (Incidentally it does go both ways; Freud committed the same error of reducing high-level intuitive understandings, genuinely mystical trans-rational Awareness, etc. to pre-rational infantilism, while Jung tended to commit the opposite error of elevating pre-rational non-differentiative fusion to the level of trans-rational Oneness.) Can't really blame him tho'; trans-rational is by definition beyond rational, so it is of course literally invisible to a rational worldview, just as the view from 10,000 feet is completely invisible to someone on the valley floor. Personally, I applaud anyone who's managed to make it as far as rational empiricism. While it is by no means the pinnacle of human awareness, at least it's higher than a large percentage of the population have achieved (which means mos is at least likely not a Republican, tho' of course there are always exceptions). Hopefully he'll eventually grow out of it as I did... :lol:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')s far as the new agers go, yea there are a lot of people out there parading around supposedly working on their "Self" yet they have only the faintest inkling of what their true "Self" is. According to Wilber, and many ancient systems ranging from Taoism to Christianity, there is nothing that is not paradoxically self. For in a non-dual existence, it is one in essence and two in existence. Seeking to harmonize one's "True Self" then means not only one's physical self, but also the species, the planet, the cosmos, etc.


Nicely said. New Age is mostly the Pre-Trans Fallacy (Jung's version especially) writ large.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he paradox of the paradox, is it that it is not a paradox?

:)
"It means buckle your seatbelt, Dorothy, because Kansas? Is goin' bye-bye... "
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