[Nano]

I don't follow you threadbear.

There will be no 'spectacular climax' during this collapse IMO. It will be slow and wrenching. I'm not even confident that Peak Oil is even ever going to be identified as the true fundamental problem. People will continu to talk about trade imbalances, corrupt governance, trade unions, recession, inflation, immigration, war, globalisation/isolationism, etc. as being the cause of any problems, even as the hubbert curve for world production is traced out through the decades to come. Cheap oil's irreplaceability, the nature of sub-surface geology and the limits of science/technology will never be broadly accepted as being the key problem.

Like an AIDS-patient on medication, humanity is going to be slowly receding, wasting and becoming more impotent every year going forward. There will be all sorts of temporary fixes, cures, defibrilations, drips and therapy's, but none will do the job and hopes will rise and be dashed continually. It will be painfull, difficult and tragic and there will be no climaxes and no catharsis.

[Zardoz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '.')..I should be sad, freaked out, worried for people, including myself, and how do I feel-- Like I've just taken a bracing cold shower, exhilerated....alive!

How sick in the head am I?

[anarky321]

what we have here is an interesting combination of economic events all happening in sync, and while by itself peak oil is perfectly manageable (with about 6 billion less people), peak oil + global warming + peak food + global overpopulation + very strong global recession (guarranteed at this point, and not peak related) together will make it a very miserable century for alot of people

i personally am looking forward to it, and while it wont be an overnight thing, some big changes are coming and they are long overdue imho, so dont count on total world collapse but there will be plenty of partial collapse to go around

[Narz]

I'm curious but not excited. I'm not ready yet so I have to say I hope you doomsterbaters have to wait at least another year & a half.

[threadbear]

Allow me to clarify. The prospect of economic "collapse" gives me that curious feeling of excitement (not environmental collapse or other forms of collapse) This is likely how people felt in East Germany before the iron curtain came down. East Germany, though still a troubled region, is likely vastly better off than it was, pre-Glasnost. Changing political systems was a wrenching miserable experience for many, but they got through it, and it's better. They've gone from totalitarian Communism to Democratic Socialism.

The American system, subject to economic pressure, will change. I don't know how it will change, but almost anything is better than the system they have now, which is neither really Democratic, nor Socialist, and about as far from Libertarian as one could imagine.

Americans are going to be forced to turn to each other and away from the television when things get tough. Ironically, in a series of paradoxes, it's the pursuit of freedom and independence, which will invigorate healthy, voluntary interdependence within communities. Constrained financial situation will force people to quit consuming and curtail their driving, which will be good for the planet and great for them.

The only concern I have is for people who are living in areas occupied by seriously dumb fu**ers, who will select themselves out of the gene pool, by reacting in a predictably retarded way to extreme stress.

Do I feel sorry for these people? Ummm....not really, because many of them are mean, as well as stupid. But I derive no glee from imagining them suffer, though I do think the world will be a better place without them.

A caveat here--I don't actually think that many people meet this criteria. A lot of people are simply dumbed down by popular culture and will be forced to change in an economically constrained environment.

I see poverty and involuntary constraints on spending as the only way out of the mess we're in. It gives me both hope and dread. That's almost dictionary definition of the term, "excitement."

[roccman]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '
')Americans are going to be forced to turn on [s]to[/s] each other and away from the television when things get tough.

[threadbear]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('roccman', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '
')Americans are going to be forced to turn on [s]to[/s] each other and away from the television when things get tough.

[Heineken]

I don't think this is T-bear thinking at its best. The point is too muddy to see. Beyond that . . .

Many among the ignorant who die will also be innocent---babies, children, adolescents. The sick and infirm. Pet dogs and cats. Zoo and farm animals.

I keep thinking of the movie "On the Beach."

[threadbear]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'I') don't think this is T-bear thinking at its best. The point is too muddy to see. Beyond that . . .

Many among the ignorant who die will also be innocent---babies, children, adolescents. The sick and infirm. Pet dogs and cats. Zoo and farm animals.

I keep thinking of the movie "On the Beach."

[NeoLotus]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('roccman', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '
')Americans are going to be forced to turn on [s]to[/s] each other and away from the television when things get tough.

[Ferretlover]

I've been thinking about this idea...
I am pretty sure that my perception of a three to five year period before there is major chaos (barring nuclear intervention) is still plausible.
It is not that I think there is no possible way to change things. There are many things that could be done to make responsible changes in lifestlyes, etc.
But, I don't think that, given the societal norms of most countries and the behavior patterns that have been ingrained by schooling, governments, etc., there is anyway to make all the necessary changes before the chaos.
Possibly that is why I have been so detached the last couple of weeks. I have come to accept that most people are going to deny that anything is really wrong, that they will fight 'tooth & nail' to resist change, that government and corporate greed & mismanagement are going to keep the illusions going as long as is possible.
I have a suspicion that the reason I am almost looking forward to the chaos is because without it, there will be no way to force a majority of humanity to change their 'wicked ways.'
I am still hoping that, when all is said and done, humans might be able to justify their interactions with others species and the planet.
Then again, I could be wrong.....

[JPL]

Interesting....

Although I have had many arguements here with Jack I think he may have a certain point to make (occasionally).

I have a (very) little bit of military training myself although I solidly think the gun is a better weapon of defence than otherwise (grin).

(Although I might be prepared to make exception for the latest-spec hand-held AR's) - grin

JP

[Heineken]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'I') don't think this is T-bear thinking at its best. The point is too muddy to see. Beyond that . . .

Many among the ignorant who die will also be innocent---babies, children, adolescents. The sick and infirm. Pet dogs and cats. Zoo and farm animals.

I keep thinking of the movie "On the Beach."

[threadbear]

No problem, Heineken--The title of the thread is a little misleading, unintentionally.

[Pablo2079]

I think Nano makes a great point here:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')here will be no 'spectacular climax' during this collapse IMO. It will be slow and wrenching. I'm not even confident that Peak Oil is even ever going to be identified as the true fundamental problem. People will continu to talk about trade imbalances, corrupt governance, trade unions, recession, inflation, immigration, war, globalisation/isolationism, etc. as being the cause of any problems, even as the hubbert curve for world production is traced out through the decades to come. Cheap oil's irreplaceability, the nature of sub-surface geology and the limits of science/technology will never be broadly accepted as being the key problem.

[Heineken]

We already have two good models of how collapse happens in the US. One was a sort of "micro" collapse, Katrina---not just the destructive meteological event itself, but the economic collapse of the geographic region that followed and the associated gross mismanagement. Another collapse event was the "macro" collapse of the Great Depression.

Both moved with surprising swiftness.

The next collapse, too, is spring-loaded to move quickly and ruthlessly, since the whole system is so vast and rickety and is made up of tightly interdependent parts. Today's economy, at its core, is infinitely sicker than the one that preceded the Great Depression. And we now have an almost unimaginably vast infrastructure that's almost totally dependent on imported hydrocarbons. The population is huge, soft, and fat; all the toughness and survival skills of days of yore have been bled out of it.

I think the idea that we'll have a long, diffuse emergency is part of the mythos we like to construct that helps us believe that we, personally, will be spectators of and not participants in collapse.

[Battle_Scarred_Galactico]

Right on heiny, your posts are like a righteous hand of reality slapping a chubby McDonalds loving face.

If your job was to design a system more ripe to collapse you'd be hard pressed to do a better job.

[Baldwin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'I') don't think this is T-bear thinking at its best. The point is too muddy to see. Beyond that . . .

Many among the ignorant who die will also be innocent---babies, children, adolescents. The sick and infirm. Pet dogs and cats. Zoo and farm animals.

I keep thinking of the movie "On the Beach."

[threadbear]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Baldwin', '
')
Now threadbear, you might find great erotic pleasure in collapse, but this will diminish as you tighten your belt and purse-strings.