[machinsin]

'Peak oil', 'GW', 'arable land', 'drinking water shortages', 'mass extincition', et al-- pick your poison. In the final analysis, all of these problems (and any other major problems that you can come up with) are merely symptomatic of the larger issue, which is: TOO MANY PEOPLE. Or, for the doubters: SOON TO BE TOO MANY PEOPLE, or even: SOME DAY TOO MANY PEOPLE.

No matter what you believe or what conclusions you've drawn or how you've arrived at those conclusions, the fact remains that the Earth cannot support perpetual human population growth/explosion. Because of this very simple but important fact, any attempts to 'solve' or 'mitigate' the issues of humanity that we presently face are just rearranging the deck chairs and will inevitably fail. The absolute best that we can hope for is to buy some time, but to what end and for what purpose?

The world needs population controls, and that is where the proverbial dog died. We can debate the numbers, but even that debate is in my mind wholly unnecessary-- because regardless of the numbers, we know that AT SOME POINT we can't continue to grow our population. Based on this logic, it is all risk and no reward to stay the course that we are on, even if those that say that the Earth can support another 2 billion, or 5 billion, or even 10 billion, are right. The very fact that there is ANY scientific evidence to support the validity of RIGHT NOW TOO MANY PEOPLE, or SOON TO BE TOO MANY PEOPLE should be enough for us to act now. Continued growth may be possible, for a time, or it may not be possible, but even if it is the liabilities and risk so far outweigh the benefits and rewards that it is preposterous to even consider such a notion. But yet, it is exactly what is happening.

The bottom line is that there is no peaceful solution that has any hope of success that is devoid of population control/restriction.

machinsin

[americandream]

Try telling that to the godfolks, most notably that woozer, the pope.

[machinsin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', 'T')ry telling that to the godfolks, most notably that woozer, the pope.

[Dry]

The earth operates on a time scale measured in the millions/billions years. The earth does not care what happens- it is constantly changing and many things that have existed are no more and some day we to shall pass. population whatever.... relax
This forum facinates me.
problems can seen so pressing and important. Come back to the spot you are in right now in say 37 million years. Earth will be something else and it won't care about you.

[kpeavey]

Historically, Humans lived their lives at the whims of mother nature. They suffered and died along with the rest of the beasts. Unfortunately the evolved a brain, giving them the ability to alter their environment, making their lives easier, more comfortable, less stressful. While this has helped a great number of people, maintaining the developed lifestyles is not possible over the next few decades.

The problem is not a regression in civilization. It lies in the increased suffering the current population must endure along the way. The next century will surely see disease, war, starvation, economic upheaval, billions of people dieing off, and all the mess and cleanup that goes along with it.

The other side of the hump will see a human population living as it did centuries ago. Wood fires, simple structures for homes, herbal remedies for illness, high infant mortality, short lifespans, small towns, local trade utilizing local resources, seasonal foods. The earth will reclaim the cities and highways. The humans will survive, at a much smaller population, to eke out an existence with whatever tools and resources are at their disposal. If things go well, and we are able to preserve a record of our history, and preserve the knowledge we have gained, there is still hope that the surviving future generations will learn from our mistakes and not repeat them.

-
In a few billion years, the sun will go nova, turning the earth into a cinder. To date, we have been able to send 2 spacecraft out of the solar system. While they were sent out to explore, eventually they will serve as a monument to our existence. Without the energy sources and refined metals, the future will be hard pressed to repeat what we have done. Can the future population pull together to get a few people off the planet and out into the heavens so our species does not go the way of the Dodo?

[bl00k]

I agree with you. Overpopulation is the basis of all problems in my opinion. Nobody wants to name the problem until it bites us in the *ss. Nobody wants to hear it at this moment. You'll be ridiculed instantly if you bring it up. Out of sight, out of might.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('machinsin', '
')The absolute best that we can hope for is to buy some time, but to what end and for what purpose?

[FoolYap]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dry', 'T')he earth operates on a time scale measured in the millions/billions years. The earth does not care what happens- it is constantly changing and many things that have existed are no more and some day we to shall pass. population whatever.... relax
This forum facinates me.
problems can seen so pressing and important. Come back to the spot you are in right now in say 37 million years. Earth will be something else and it won't care about you.

[MrBill]

Not only too many of God's little children, machinsin, but also a shift from aging developed countries to younger less-developed countries, and all the challenges that presents to a smooth transition to a new equilibrium. No one wants their 'tribe' to die-off first or become out-numbered by the Jones. A clash of civilizations is as inevitable as peak oil even if we do not know what the result will look like. Welcome to the Monkey House! ; - )

[eastbay]

kpeavey, the sun is too small to become a supernova.

Please cross that off your list of concerns.

Thank you.

[roccman]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('machinsin', ''')Peak oil', 'GW', 'arable land', 'drinking water shortages', 'mass extincition', et al-- pick your poison. In the final analysis, all of these problems (and any other major problems that you can come up with) are merely symptomatic of the larger issue, which is: TOO MANY PEOPLE. Or, for the doubters: SOON TO BE TOO MANY PEOPLE, or even: SOME DAY TOO MANY PEOPLE.

No matter what you believe or what conclusions you've drawn or how you've arrived at those conclusions, the fact remains that the Earth cannot support perpetual human population growth/explosion. Because of this very simple but important fact, any attempts to 'solve' or 'mitigate' the issues of humanity that we presently face are just rearranging the deck chairs and will inevitably fail. The absolute best that we can hope for is to buy some time, but to what end and for what purpose?

The world needs population controls, and that is where the proverbial dog died. We can debate the numbers, but even that debate is in my mind wholly unnecessary-- because regardless of the numbers, we know that AT SOME POINT we can't continue to grow our population. Based on this logic, it is all risk and no reward to stay the course that we are on, even if those that say that the Earth can support another 2 billion, or 5 billion, or even 10 billion, are right. The very fact that there is ANY scientific evidence to support the validity of RIGHT NOW TOO MANY PEOPLE, or SOON TO BE TOO MANY PEOPLE should be enough for us to act now. Continued growth may be possible, for a time, or it may not be possible, but even if it is the liabilities and risk so far outweigh the benefits and rewards that it is preposterous to even consider such a notion. But yet, it is exactly what is happening.

The bottom line is that there is no peaceful solution that has any hope of success that is devoid of population control/restriction.

machinsin

[dinopello]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kpeavey', 'H')istorically, Humans lived their lives at the whims of mother nature. They suffered and died along with the rest of the beasts. Unfortunately the evolved a brain, giving them the ability to alter their environment, making their lives easier, more comfortable, less stressful.

[bonehead]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('machinsin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', 'T')ry telling that to the godfolks, most notably that woozer, the pope.

[Opies]

to not mention that although we have never in history seen an example, most religious folk seem to believe in an interventionist god who couldn't possibly let anything bad happen to its greatest creation...

[Ferretlover]

The bottom line is that the earth is "going to do us all in."
GW, global dimming, earthquakes, polar reversal, volcanoes-the planet is changing.
PO, financial markets, war, disease, et al are just the immediate (in human prospective) problems that pose a threat to human and all other species on this planet.

[gampy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dry', 'T')he earth operates on a time scale measured in the millions/billions years. The earth does not care what happens- it is constantly changing and many things that have existed are no more and some day we to shall pass. population whatever.... relax
This forum facinates me.
problems can seen so pressing and important. Come back to the spot you are in right now in say 37 million years. Earth will be something else and it won't care about you.

[MrBill]

Call me a heretic, but I think 3 billion could be sustainable?

[mos6507]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', 'C')all me a heretic, but I think 3 billion could be sustainable?

[MrBill]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', 'C')all me a heretic, but I think 3 billion could be sustainable?

[Alcassin]

I found somewhere this data (I think Club of Rome provided this or Wackernagel...)

4 billion - Eastern European level
3 billion - Western European level
2 billion - Nothern American level

But the number drops every year as economy grows Because there is less to plunder and more to consume so every year of exceeding carrying capacity shrinks carrying capacity and the number drops again. It's like a spiral.

To keep current number we should use as much resources as average Cuban.

[TheDude]

We could use less more efficiently, and more sustainably, like Amory Lovins suggests. Right now we're really setting the standard for profligate waste.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dinopello', 'E')very species will overpopulate and destroy the environment if there is nothing to check it - stick a bunch of rabbits in a cabbage patch - it'll be a big rabbit orgy and then starvation.