[TheDude]

link

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')rofessor Bruce Dale from Michigan State University claims, "Net energy analysis is simple and has great intuitive appeal, but it is also dead wrong and dangerously misleading -- net energy must be eliminated from our discourse." Dale's perspective is published in the first edition of Biofuels, Bioproducts and Biorefining.

[sameu]

yes lets cancel those irritating laws of thermodynamics

[dub_scratch]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')rofessor Bruce Dale from Michigan State University claims, "Net energy analysis is simple and has great intuitive appeal, but it is also dead wrong and dangerously misleading -- net energy must be eliminated from our discourse." Dale's perspective is published in the first edition of Biofuels, Bioproducts and Biorefining.

[billp]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'y')es lets cancel those irritating laws of thermodynamics

[Starvid]

Good point.

Energy isn't what counts here. What counts is liquid energy.

A barrel of oil is about $90.

A barrel of oil equivalent in gas is half that.

A barrel of oil equivalent in coal is about $10-15.

Clearly, just looking at energy gives a hugely warped picture. What matters is liquid fuels, and it's not hugely important if these fuels are energy gainers or energy losers, as energy is quite abundant. After all, depending on how you look at it GTL, CTL and tar sands are all energy negative, as there is less energy in the liquid fuel they produce than there is in the original natgas, coal or bitumen.

[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('billp', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'y')es lets cancel those irritating laws of thermodynamics

[Gerben]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')rofessor Bruce Dale from Michigan State University claims, ...His calculations indicate that every MJ of ethanol can displace 28 MJ of petroleum, in other words ethanol greatly extends our existing supplies of petroleum.

[lys3rg0]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Gerben', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')rofessor Bruce Dale from Michigan State University claims, ...His calculations indicate that every MJ of ethanol can displace 28 MJ of petroleum, in other words ethanol greatly extends our existing supplies of petroleum.

[SchroedingersCat]

No need to rebut it here. Pimentel already wiped the floor with this guy: The Costs Of Biofuels

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')y focusing only on petroleum use in corn ethanol production, Dr. Dale reports reduced carbon dioxide in corn ethanol production. This is true only if petroleum use is restricted in the total assessment. Dr. Dale fails to consider the carbon dioxide released from all the energy inputs for nitrogen fertilizer, farm labor, farm machinery, hybrid corn, and irrigation. When all of these inputs plus the energy required in processing are included in the assessment, then about 40% more fossil energy is required to produce a gallon of ethanol than is in the ethanol produced. Thus, about 1.4 gal of oil equivalents are required to produce 1 gal of ethanol.

[TheDude]

What grabbed me about the 28MJ comment was that he made it sound like we'd be powering vehicles with...reduced CO2 emissions. I think. Not quite a Tiger in the Tank, but he's an Expert according to the article.

[aahala]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Gerben', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')rofessor Bruce Dale from Michigan State University claims, ...His calculations indicate that every MJ of ethanol can displace 28 MJ of petroleum, in other words ethanol greatly extends our existing supplies of petroleum.

[yesplease]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TheDude', 'W')hat grabbed me about the 28MJ comment was that he made it sound like we'd be powering vehicles with...reduced CO2 emissions. I think.

[yesplease]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('aahala', 'W')hat I'd love to see is the locations of the "large-scale cellulosic ethanol plants" currently under construction.

[yesplease]

pstarr, if you would reread the comment I quoted and my comment, you may realize that my response was an example of where a commercial ethanol plant was currently under construction. I'm not sure what the point of the rest of your comment is, since it doesn't directly address anything in my comment, but I'm sure it serves it's purpose on a forum that's a promotional tool of corporate America such as peakoil.com.

[TheDude]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yesplease', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TheDude', 'W')hat grabbed me about the 28MJ comment was that he made it sound like we'd be powering vehicles with...reduced CO2 emissions. I think.

[yesplease]

I believe Dale's point is from the perspective of use and cost, since oil prices have increased by a factor of five compared to other fuel sources. The point being that if we can replace some percentage of a inelastic commodity like oil with something that performs the same function but is inelastic, it's economically advantageous. Granted, i don't think anyone sane would say that ethanol from corn is anything except for a kickback to key voters in the farming states, and something to gauge how receptive automakers and consumers are to it, a trial run for ethanol essentially, with the ideal being cellulosic production from waste streams (something like this may make upkeep of forests viable) and low input crops. But ultimately cellulosic ethanol would be fairly significant when it comes down to a mobile fuel source. That being said, considering the average efficiency of use of a gallon of gasoline for personal transportation is at best ~5%, we have quite a ways to go in terms of reducing demand/increasing the efficiency personal gasoline based transportation.

In terms of oil, or ethanol, or anything being a net energy looser, that's true, but kinda useless in any context other than the second law of thermodynamics/entropy since every energy stream we use is subject to this. We can either use an energy stream, with some efficiency depending on the quality and our use, or we can not use it. Ethanol usually doesn't result in lower fuel efficiency AFAIK. In fact, it's usually higher. It does result in lower fuel mileage since there is less energy per gallon compared to gasoline, just like there's less energy per gallon of gasoline than gallon of diesel.

[yesplease]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yesplease', 'I') believe Dale's point is from the perspective of use and cost, since oil prices have increased by a factor of five compared to other fuel sources.