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Should we change what we're doing?

What's on your mind?
General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.
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Re: Should we change what we're doing?

Unread postby smiley » Mon 05 Nov 2007, 19:39:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'T')hen get to reading and doing from what you read in the Planning Forum instead of the talking in the Talking Forum.


To be honest Pops, the planning forum gives me the creeps

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')Food] Production – Gardening, General
[Food] Production - Poultry (was Backyard Chickens)
Project Stealth PO House
[Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
[Shelter] Heat - Wood (was Wood Stoves)
Chainsaw recommendations?
Ancient foods


No offence but if life is going to be half as bad as these people predict, you might as well shoot and eat me. (I wouldn't recommend it though. Twenty years of smoking leaves a bad aftertaste or so I heard. 8) )


The way I see it oil production is going over the hill and will decline. That will not go unnoticed. It will cause a major uproar.

But I do believe that someone with a bit of sense, planning and a bit of luck will be able to ride out in relative comfort. If you have a trade which actually has a value to society, if you have your property, no debts, and some value stash, chances are that you will make it without having to resolve to sprouting beans in your own excrements, and spending 24/7 in your personal bunker behind barbed wire with an M16 handy.

Now that might be a delusion, I won't argue with that.

But it is my delusion and for sanity sake I like to keep it that way.
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Re: Should we change what we're doing?

Unread postby Pops » Mon 05 Nov 2007, 20:34:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smiley', 'T')o be honest Pops, the planning forum gives me the creeps.

PFTF was my idea and it scares me too.

That is why it’s here.

Don’t be distracted.
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
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Re: Should we change what we're doing?

Unread postby smiley » Mon 05 Nov 2007, 20:37:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') grew up a spoiled, rich, city gal,


That's the difference. I grew up at a farm. :-D

I have nothing against farming per se. Untill my 20's I used to work the summers at farms and I loved it out there.

And yes I do have some herbs, fruits and vegs in my garden. And like every self-respecting man I take great pride in my compost stack. (it fantastic that men even manage compete over something as futile as a heap of rotting leaves don't you agree?)

But there is a difference between gardening, a farmer, and farming for survival. I have been around, and everywhere you go, whether in Asia, Eastern Europe, South America or Africa you see these people trying to survive on a few chickens, a pig, some vegs, and three different jobs.

They bust their ass 7 days a week. And what do they have at the end of the day? A meal and a few spare pennies to get loaded on cheap liquor in some shack down the road.

Call me spoiled, but that is no life for me.
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Re: Should we change what we're doing?

Unread postby Pops » Mon 05 Nov 2007, 20:57:14

PFTF has nothing to do with shoveling manure.

It considers ways to plan for the future.

Is that hard too understand?

If you don't like the tone, change it.

Dang.
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
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Re: Should we change what we're doing?

Unread postby smiley » Mon 05 Nov 2007, 21:30:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')FTF has nothing to do with shoveling manure.


That is clear to me. Key point is that the majority of the discussions in PFTF are based on scenario's that are too doomerish for me, regardless of the amount of manure shoveling that takes place.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f you don't like the tone, change it.


The only way to change the tone is to convince people or to get people with other opinions in.

I have tried the convincing part, but I discovered that it is an uphill battle where you offend people more easily than that you convince them. Moreover I realised that I know as little about what is going to come as the next guy. So who am I to tell that my delusions are better than theirs.

That leaves the option of getting new people in. Overall I think this site would benefit from a more mixed audience.
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Re: Should we change what we're doing?

Unread postby Pops » Mon 05 Nov 2007, 22:34:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smiley', 'T')he only way to change the tone is to convince people or to get people with other opinions in. That leaves the option of getting new people in. Overall I think this site would benefit from a more mixed audience.

Naw, there are lots of people looking; you just need to engage them.
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
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Re: Should we change what we're doing?

Unread postby thuja » Mon 05 Nov 2007, 23:17:40

Pops- your point is well taken- anything that we are discussing could be placed in the Planning for the Future Forum- so its fair game to say just start a thread...

At the same time, I have heard Smiley's point before- I think from Shrodinger's Cat (sp?) and others suggesting a "transition" forum. I think I would call it a "Mitigation" or "Community Preparation" forum.

For good reasons, the PFTF forum has a lot about homesteading, farming, low energy lifestyles that people are engaging in.
The flavor tends to be how individuals are working to cope with future problems and not so much about how communities are working towards solutions. Certainly this could appear in a PFTF forum, but it seems like there could be an additional forum to attract a greater audience.

I think this gets down to my fundamental beef with the site- which is that the consensus has been to lump things together more instead of allowing for a greater range of discussion. For example, threads about biofuels get lumped into one gigantic and unwieldy mess known as "The Mother of All Biofuels Debate" or something like that. It is immensely long and I have never wanted to start from scratch to read it because it is too long. I am not a fan of merging threads when different discussions can take place on the same subject.

Likewise, one gigantic forum known as Planning for the Future is too large a concept in my book. Perhaps sub-forums could erupt such as Community Planning Forum (attracting Mitigationists) and Defense Forum (attracting zombie lovers), etc etc.
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Re: Should we change what we're doing?

Unread postby Heineken » Tue 06 Nov 2007, 10:10:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'S')o . . . what could be more important to talk about than TEOTWAWKI?



How to make it less bad.


As I see it, that's the same basic subject, Ludi.

TEOTWAWKI and all its ramifications.
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Re: Should we change what we're doing?

Unread postby Heineken » Tue 06 Nov 2007, 10:24:43

Thuja et al., I just don't buy the argument that pausing to reflect philosophically on doom (i.e., "talking") is inconsistent with actively preparing for it. I work outside with my hands most all of most days and have still managed to find time to post thousands of doomer posts, and read thousands more, since September 2004. My God, folks, we can't "get ready" for Goetterdaemmerung 24/7! Sometimes it makes sense to pull back and take the bigger view . . . and to cough up some of the negative phlegm, as Shanny encourages her son to do.

Furthermore, it can convincingly be argued (and has been on this site) that our preparations may be in vain. In that case, reflecting on doom may prove to have been more meaningful in our lives than actively preparing for it with our fig trees and permaculture patches.

We are masters at deceiving ourselves as we vainly strive to deceive Fate.
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Re: Should we change what we're doing?

Unread postby roccman » Tue 06 Nov 2007, 10:46:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', '
')
We are masters at deceiving ourselves as we vainly strive to deceive Fate.


Well said Heineken...
"There must be a bogeyman; there always is, and it cannot be something as esoteric as "resource depletion." You can't go to war with that." Emersonbiggins
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Re: Should we change what we're doing?

Unread postby Ludi » Tue 06 Nov 2007, 11:43:07

I mainly like the Planning forum because it is more about doing than talking. I like to see what other people are doing, especially if they post pictures (mmmm, pineapples). I usually skip the most doomeristic threads.


Those who want to post about mitigation/community, please do so!


As I've said many many times, I don't expect to survive TEOTWAWKI, but I work on my "permaculture patches" because I enjoy it and it's good for my health. Contemplating doom isn't good for my health, so no, for me, it will not be "more meaningful" in my life to contemplate doom than to work on my permaculture patches. :)

Those who want to contemplate doom are certainly welcome to do so! Maybe it is good for your health, who knows.
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Re: Should we change what we're doing?

Unread postby Heineken » Tue 06 Nov 2007, 12:24:03

Shanny, yes, I agree: ". . . may prove to have been as meaningful in our lives as actively preparing for it . . . ." Thanks for quoting me, and feel free to make the edit right away.

Ludi, you know how much I love getting my hands dirty.

This all get back to the two-track-mind idea: One track accepts the inevitable (and willingly discusses it), the other track honorably battles the inevitable and joyfully validates life. Both tracks operate simultaneously.
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Re: Should we change what we're doing?

Unread postby Aaron » Tue 06 Nov 2007, 13:59:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')e are masters at deceiving ourselves as we vainly strive to deceive Fate.


Heineken wins
The problem is, of course, that not only is economics bankrupt, but it has always been nothing more than politics in disguise... economics is a form of brain damage.

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Re: Should we change what we're doing?

Unread postby SpringCreekFarm » Tue 06 Nov 2007, 14:44:25

Our preparations are not in vain unless you've decided to prepare only to lessen the harsh effects of peak oil. If you happen to like being independent from the sheeple society, then the preparation thing serves both your desire to live a happy independent life with the benefit of a softer landing. If doom is on the horizon then I'm gonna go out happily tending my homestead.

Edit: To remove reference to violence.
Last edited by SpringCreekFarm on Tue 06 Nov 2007, 16:44:51, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Should we change what we're doing?

Unread postby Pops » Tue 06 Nov 2007, 16:30:09

Naw,

We are adept justifying what we find most comfortable.

I enjoy striving to live; others, to die.

Fate is an excuse.
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
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Re: Should we change what we're doing?

Unread postby thuja » Tue 06 Nov 2007, 17:33:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'T')huja et al., I just don't buy the argument that pausing to reflect philosophically on doom (i.e., "talking") is inconsistent with actively preparing for it.


Never said that. If you'll look at some of my threads (recent one- Die-off, the Thuja Scenario), I do embrace talking about doom- it is an essential aspect of what we do here- realistically diagramming likely future scenarios. I think is is essential and I think we need cornucopians, optimistic doomers, cynical doomers and uberdoomers to battle it out on the threads.

I'll try and make my suggestion clear-

Divide PFTF forum into smaller forums that are more specific-

Planning for the Future is a huge topic. If you look at that forum, there are 42 or so pages. Without doing a specific search, you would have to scroll back page after page to find an interesting thread from back in the day.

Different forums allow people to find their niche.

How about:

Planning for Defense:
Community Preparation:
Off-Grid Living:
Agriculture:

Etc etc. Instead of a thread entitled farming (my God that could encompass 5 million different subjects)- make it a forum. Then mitigationists will find their way. City dwellers will find their way, rural homesteaders will find their way. Gun enthusiasts will...etc etc...

So again- 42 pages of PFTF? 800 or so different threads all in one category? Pops, if, as you say, that PFTF is the single most important forum on this site- why make it so large and unwieldy?
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Re: Should we change what we're doing?

Unread postby Pops » Tue 06 Nov 2007, 17:53:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', 'S')o again- 42 pages of PFTF? 800 or so different threads all in one category? Pops, if, as you say, that PFTF is the single most important forum on this site- why make it so large and unwieldy?

As I have suggested many times to the PTB here, there should be more of an emphasis on what to do in the real world instead of what is the newest news flash or data from SA.

I have spent many hours compiling resources in that forum and attempting various ways to make to make them more available, all of which have taken considerable time with my limited bandwidth.

Crap, what do you want?


Oh yea, your own forum.

I will suggest it.
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
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Re: Should we change what we're doing?

Unread postby thuja » Tue 06 Nov 2007, 17:57:23

Hey yeah- The Thuja Forum- I love it- and I shall rule all with the iron fist of unmerciful fury!!

Sorry Pops- I know how much work you do here for this site- and I'm definitely not trying to criticize- I am simply talking about ways of helping this place be better at what it does. If that means too much inordinate extra time and effort...then so be it.

Again...thankyou for all you do. Now about that thuja forum...
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Re: Should we change what we're doing?

Unread postby Pops » Tue 06 Nov 2007, 21:12:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', 'H')ey yeah- The Thuja Forum- I love it- and I shall rule all with the iron fist of unmerciful fury!!

Sorry Pops- I know how much work you do here for this site- and I'm definitely not trying to criticize- I am simply talking about ways of helping this place be better at what it does. If that means too much inordinate extra time and effort...then so be it.

Again...thank you for all you do. Now about that thuja forum...


Thanks for the complement thuja, your opinions are a perfect counterpoint to mine.

As far as ruling the Thuja Forum…

Step up or step back.
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
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Re: Should we change what we're doing?

Unread postby Heineken » Tue 06 Nov 2007, 23:04:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SpringCreekFarm', 'O')ur preparations are not in vain unless you've decided to prepare only to lessen the harsh effects of peak oil. If you happen to like being independent from the sheeple society, then the preparation thing serves both your desire to live a happy independent life with the benefit of a softer landing. If doom is on the horizon then I'm gonna go out happily tending my homestead.


SpringCreek, my own preparations have tended to make me more of a doomer, not less. I started "getting back to the land" in 1983, and everything I've done since then has been a lesson in the extreme difficulties of achieving true (as opposed to partial or illusory) independence from stores, dentists, the Grid, and yer friendly neighborhood Exxon. In my case, part of the difficulty has been the need to make compromises with the people in my life, and the fact that those people have their own priorities or limitations that preclude their pitching in. So it's really just me. On top of that, though, are the many huge obstacles I've described elsewhere (like Japanese beetles).

I wonder how truly independent any of us can be. That really is the crux of it. When society collapses and a chicken scratches you and that little scratch suddenly becomes terribly infected and you urgently need an antibiotic that's no longer available, what then?

I do my country thing because I love it, not because I think it will save me. I might even die sooner because some of my outdoor activities are fairly dangerous and I have no health insurance, one detail among the many that have turned me into a fuckin' rabid radical.
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