[holmes]

OVERSHOOT CAN NEVER BE GREEN. Within overpopulation nothing is green. There is an ILLUSION of "green". End of story. Green is a pretty color and a nice word tho.

[holmes]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', '
')
thuja,

You need to begin meditation sessions or you will go insane for real. I suggest a breathing technique... it's quite calming.

[holmes]

Thank you eastbay and ferret for looking deeply at this so called "green" claim and coming to a logical conclusion. Its so obvious how blown out portland is. I mean it is taking half the population of California.

[TheDude]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', 'O')ops sorry- I took a look at those maps but they seem a tad conservative to me...any detailed local studies?

[TheDude]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', 'O')ops sorry- I took a look at those maps but they seem a tad conservative to me...any detailed local studies?

[thuja]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('holmes', 'O')VERSHOOT CAN NEVER BE GREEN. Within overpopulation nothing is green. There is an ILLUSION of "green". End of story. Green is a pretty color and a nice word tho.

[thuja]

Here is another great program that Portland DIY folks have created. Its known as urban edibles and supports harvesting fruit and nuts from trees in the city. I won't dare call it Green...perhaps something more appropriate such as


A Desperate Attempt to Stave off Overshoot and Collapse

[eastbay]

I wouldn't tell everyone about the 'urban edibles' thuja my friend.

If everyone knows it'll all be stripped clean about an hour after the grocery stores empty out.

I would seriously consider omitting a few choice edibles from the list... if you know what I mean.

[thuja]

Sorry Eastbay- I just disagree that the grocery stores will all be emptied and people will starve in the street. Do you truly see that as a near term likelihood (the next 5-10 years)?

[eastbay]

Yes. 7% depletion rate. That's huge. That means unstable times are close at hand.
This report strongly suggests the unwinding of Western Civilization is well underway.

Empty stores? I suppose we'll find out if Portland will be hit sooner or not as soon. As depletion develops food stores will begin emptying across the world like falling domino's. The debate is about when. No place will be immune.

[thuja]

If all the stores emptied out, 99% of the population would die within a matter of days- you're talking about an extinction level event...not even a die-off.

You don't factor in that food is a vital necessity and that all excess energy will likely go to securing and transporting food. There will be unbelievable unrest, black markets, crime, etc. But near term massive and overwhelming starvation? I'm sorry I just don't see that.

Furthermore, if radical food depletion occurs, the Willamette valley is definietly a pretty good place to be. Right now my friend, who works for Eco-Trust (I promise I won't call it Green), is helping to develop a system of networking amongst local farmers so they can sell and distribute to local customers.

The limiting factor will be the high cost and eventual scarcity of fuel. What are the solutions to that? I don't know yet but I'm guessing a cobbled together system of electric, biofuel and even animal powered systems. Probably all fuels used for delivery/transportation will be massively subsidized at state and local levels to insure that...people don't starve in the streets.

[eastbay]

If all the stores emptied out, 99% of the population would die within a matter of days- you're talking about an extinction level event...not even a die-off.

Stores in New Orleans emptied out in a matter of hours. Louisianans (or whatever they're called) didn't go extinct. Not yet.

For us NW 'erners it just means, at least for the first few rounds, that things will get increasingly nasty and ugly... eventually bloody too. It's a natural process. Nothing to get very upset or sad (I mean generally, not just you and me) about. Just prepare as best you can.

For the near-term there is some small hope for getting by without oil The Swiss did it. Cuba too. N Korea had a partial die-off. A few African countries are surviving (barely) with very little fuel. Japan too was without oil for a period. There are examples of success, or partial success ... we'll see how we do. Better than most. Not as good as some. Hopefully it happens before we immigrate a few million more food competitors.

[holmes]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('holmes', 'O')VERSHOOT CAN NEVER BE GREEN. Within overpopulation nothing is green. There is an ILLUSION of "green". End of story. Green is a pretty color and a nice word tho.

[holmes]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', 'I')f all the stores emptied out, 99% of the population would die within a matter of days- you're talking about an extinction level event...not even a die-off.

You don't factor in that food is a vital necessity and that all excess energy will likely go to securing and transporting food. There will be unbelievable unrest, black markets, crime, etc. But near term massive and overwhelming starvation? I'm sorry I just don't see that.

Furthermore, if radical food depletion occurs, the Willamette valley is definietly a pretty good place to be. Right now my friend, who works for Eco-Trust (I promise I won't call it Green), is helping to develop a system of networking amongst local farmers so they can sell and distribute to local customers.

The limiting factor will be the high cost and eventual scarcity of fuel. What are the solutions to that? I don't know yet but I'm guessing a cobbled together system of electric, biofuel and even animal powered systems. Probably all fuels used for delivery/transportation will be massively subsidized at state and local levels to insure that...people don't starve in the streets.

[Plantagenet]

We hit peak oil in 2006 or late in 2005. The world will have only 50% as much oil production in 30 years compared to today.

Is that enough to cause famine and die-off in Portland?

Can Portland replace 50% of the oil it uses with more solar, hydro, nuclear, geothermal, biofuel, bicycles, etc. and keep energy use at today's levels?

Can Portland powerdown and use half as much energy and not have famines?

[eastbay]

With twice the current population in the metro area at current immigration and growth rates? Heck no. No way. Hopefully the unwinding starts much earlier than 2030 so the disaster is only half as intense.

[thuja]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'W')e hit peak oil in 2006 or late in 2005. The world will have only 50% as much oil production in 30 years compared to today.

Is that enough to cause famine and die-off in Portland?

Can Portland replace 50% of the oil it uses with more solar, hydro, nuclear, geothermal, biofuel, bicycles, etc. and keep energy use at today's levels?

Can Portland powerdown and use half as much energy and not have famines?

[eastbay]

The Peak OIl Resolution passed last year here calls for a 50% reduction in oil and natural gas by 2030. Essentially this will happen whether we like it or not. Can this take place without widespread starvation in the street? Undoubtedly. Many cities in the world have undergone siege warfare and not experienced an utter collapse in population.

Will it be ugly? Undoubtedly as well.

Nature called for that reduction too. It was basically an admission that PO is screaming at us.

Too bad they didn't pass a resolution calling for zero immigration and other population growth mitigation measures too. I believe nature has called for that resultion as well. I suppose we'll get around to it. Hope it happens soon.

[threadbear]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('holmes', ' ') Right now my friend, who works It truly is a bitter sweet situation for sure.

[Plantagenet]

There's some coal in Oregon.


USGS Bull 982B: Duncan, D.C., 1953, Geology and coal deposits in part of the Coos Bay coal field, Oregon: U.S. Geological Survey Bulletin 982-B, p. 53-73.

That could be part of the energy mix for Portland in 30 years.