[bodigami]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cabrone', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')eople will not change until they have too

[muon]

[quote=btu2012]-a program to reduce pointless consumption; this in particular means the deconstruction of the present consumer economy and its replacement with a more frugal and rational economic system, a system which intrinsically takes into account the natural limits of its inputs as well as ecological costs[/quote]

I was reading a little bit about trade, and this story mentions something I had noticed. In many countries we are sending abroad the same type of products we're importing. The article gives bottled water for an example:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '"')As the world creeps closer to irreversible global warming and goes deeper into ecological debt, why on earth, say, would the UK export 20 tonnes of mineral water to Australia and then re-import 21 tonnes," said NEF director Andrew Simms.

"And why would that wasteful trade be more the rule than the exception," he added.

[Blacksmith]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Nicholai', 'S')omeone had asked several pages back if overpopulation is ever discussed in the public school system.

I was at a provincial environmental conference and I asked a panel of Shell representatives if they thought that overpopulation might be one of the root causes of our enormous global warming dilemma. The first to respond mocked the question immediately, "Oops, I have 3 kids, I guess you want to put me in jail now, eh? (all members of the panel laughed as well as the audience)" I then sat back down without an answer to my question. I was laughed off stage and this was just under a year ago. Members of our provincial government were also in attendance and laughed with the rest.

I wish the worst for these people.

[Ferretlover]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Blacksmith', ' ')To make a joke of something you cannot answer is a common trick. What you do next time is be a broken record and keep repeating the question. Or ask him if he fells global warming is a joke.

[btu2012]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('albente', 'F')orgot about the topic here, can anyone remind me what the discussion is all about?

[btu2012]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('muon', ' ')I wonder if there would be a way to reorganise these things to make it better for everyone from a survival point of view rather than a monetary point of view as it seems we use now?

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('btu2012', '[')It was meant to be about people's proposals for dealing with PO. I was trying to get a summary of what they would propose technologically and socially.

Btu

[btu2012]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '
')
There are good suggestions in the following books:

"Permaculture: a designer's manual" by Bill Mollison. especially the final chapter about social organizations

"Solviva" by Anna Edey

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('btu2012', 'I') am surprised at the scarcity of well thought out proposals to that effect. The doomerosity level on these lists is very high. It seems that a lot of people didn't think seriously about what could be done at macro-social level.

Btu

[Ludi]

Here's a plan (community scale): http://www.communitysolution.org/solutions.html

Another plan (home scale): http://pathtofreedom.com/


More ideas (community scale): http://www.solviva.com/


Bill Mollison's book referenced above gives in the final chapter a complete plan for new social organization (world scale) based on sustainability, which can be implemented immediately if people want to. Actually. there's nothing stopping immediate action on any of these plans.



Many people here on po.com are actively working toward a sustainable way of life on the home and community scale. If you want more ideas, you might try posting in the Planning forum, which is the forum for planning and implementing change. This forum is more for discussing peak oil itself.

[muon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('btu2012', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '
')
There are good suggestions in the following books:

"Permaculture: a designer's manual" by Bill Mollison. especially the final chapter about social organizations

"Solviva" by Anna Edey

[btu2012]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('muon', '
')I think we have to be ready and willing to make major changes to the way we look at economics on a global level, and I don't see any governments being likely to want to start that off or live through it or guide it willingly or effectively. Now I sound like a doomer :cry:

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('muon', 'I') think we have to be ready and willing to make major changes to the way we look at economics on a global level, and I don't see any governments being likely to want to start that off or live through it or guide it willingly or effectively. Now I sound like a doomer

[dohboi]

btu claimed: "Remember that governments are chosen by the people..."

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahhahha.

OK, sorry. First of all, not all governments even pretend to be democratic, so this statement clearly doesn't apply to them. Second, in for example the US 2000 presidential election less than 1/2 of the population voted and of those less than 1/2 (that adds up to less than 1/4 of the total, by the way) voted for the shmuck who won.

Furthermore, moneyed interests, especially if they see themselves threatened, will and do do everything in their power (which is considerable) to subvert the "will of the people" both before (through massive and deceptive TV ads...) and after the election (through lobbying, bribery, threats...).

When the top one percent controls more money (=power) than the bottom 50% (as in Amerika), the pretence of democracy, where all have equal political power, is clearly just that.

Of course, even if the "people" had their way, in a place accustomed to using up 1/4+ of the world's resource with only 1/20 of its population, can you expect them to embrace policies that would force them to live within their ecological means, that is at about an average of 1/7th of their current consumption rate?

Oh, I could go on, but really, that is one of the most sweetly naive things I've seen written on these boards in quite some time. Was it a slip, or do you really cherish such quaint notions?

[btu2012]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dohboi', ' ')OK, sorry. First of all, not all governments even pretend to be democratic, so this statement clearly doesn't apply to them.

[muon]

I have a somewhat crazy idea here for the macro level...

How about rationing via personal ecological (and/or energy) tokens? Each person on earth would be given a ration around 0.7 of a planet (where the WWF calculator approximates around 3 planets currently to the average UK citizen). This wouldn't supplant currency but work alongside it. The tokens would be transferable so that you could swap money for a token inside or outside your country. However if you swap outside your country you pay the value that is set for your country, eg if a token was US$1 then you would pay that to buy a token no matter what country it was from. If a certain product is marked at 10 tokens, then you still have the choice of buying the $50 product and paying 10 "ECOs" (or EEOs) or buying the $5000 version and paying 10 ECOs, so that this still works with capitalism and not moving to a communist economy.

The ECO would automatically give more bang for the ECO in local trade networks but would still allow for global trade. Companies selling high ECO products would be motivated to move to lower ECO production and selling but would not necessarily go out of business as they could first make changes where applicable and viable. A product like a house might be given permission to have ECO loans that are repayable over 25 years. The number of ECOs in circulation should never go above 1 planet. Healthcare would not be included in the personal limit. Global population data would be used in limited periods of years, and unused tokens at the end of the period would be handed in, then you would receive a refund according to the most current data, so that if population rises the refunded ECOs are worth less, if population is lowered, they are worth more.

There would be a gradual phase in, maybe a ten year period where the ECOs are worked out for products and people can see what the cost is of what they are selling and buying and what effects they have, and what changes they need to make to get ready for the active phase.

I have no idea how this would be policed on a national level. On an international level I can only think of total trade sanctions against non-compliant countries.

This wouldn't be just about ecological footprints, but also about peak oil (or other resources). For instance, fossil fuels would naturally be costed high in ECOs and this could rise as reserves go down, but also things like solar or wind power would be factored in according to their footprint, if they're using a resource which the planet is low on, then their ECO cost goes up too.

[centralstump]

Quote "Furthermore, moneyed interests, especially if they see themselves threatened, will and do do everything in their power (which is considerable) to subvert the "will of the people" both before (through massive and deceptive TV ads...) and after the election (through lobbying, bribery, threats...)."

[edit: I suck at quoting]


I gotta go with btu on this one. The United States of America is democratic to the EXTREME. To suggest it isn't is scapegoating.

Every single $ that goes towards Britney Spears new fragrance or that brand spanking new 42" Plasma Screen TV (personally guilty) in our basement is a VOTE for the status quo. The business interests compile our votes and then help to elect people that will further OUR interests. Even if our interests are stupid.

We have no one to blame for our problems except ourselves.

[dohboi]

Nicely put, Btu. Any suggestions on how to start changing the problems you point out, especially in your last two paragraphs? How to get "truth" out when the media are owned by a few moguls?

cemtralstump, "EXTREME" sounds rather exteme to me. Dollars are not supposed to be the same as votes. I agree that we pretty much desrve the leaders we get. But most people even in the US have views on the environment that are far ahead of their leaders (though still not quite adequae to the problem, and largely contradicted by their purchacing behavior.)

I just can't begin to go into the reasons that the US is far from being a real dmocracy beyond what I've already said. Read some Chomsky or just about any one else with a bit of insight. Of course recent by changes have further eroded what was left of American democracy.

(I suck at quotes, too.)

[btu2012]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dohboi', 'N')icely put, Btu. Any suggestions on how to start changing the problems you point out, especially in your last two paragraphs? How to get "truth" out when the media are owned by a few moguls?

[Ludi]

Or one could pursue a plan which does not require action from politicians.


Wouldn't that be easier, or at least faster?