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Butterfly Effect

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General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.

Re: Butterfly Effect

Unread postby blukatzen » Sat 01 Sep 2007, 15:39:53

I was looking at crop circles that have happened this past growing season, and suprisingly, one was of a Beautiful BUTTERFLY!

It happened at Oxfordshire, England on July 16, '07 (just about a month and a half ago) I wanted to post some pics, but there are copyrights all over them, you can go to cropcircleconnector.com and look up "butterfly crop circle." If someone wants/or can post the pics here, it would be helpful.
Google "butterfly crop circle" too, and it will help..

Just wanting to pollinate with some more useful information...
flitting back to the garden to put in more plants for the butterfly garden I am building.

Yesterday, I was at a Home Depot, and I can't stand how they keep their plants (never watered, it's a joke amongst gardeners that they go there to die, if you don't get the plants right off the truck, they're doomed.) I saw a sweet little chewed up butterfly bush, dying for lack of neglect. Still tried to put some nectar out, and had a few good flower heads, so I said "I can clean you up little sweeie, yer comin' home with me!"
On the way out to my jeep, a Monarch swept very fast and landed on the plant, almost like a blessing. It was a good sign, I feel.

Back to the garden....! (flits away..)
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Re: Butterfly Effect

Unread postby blukatzen » Sat 01 Sep 2007, 16:25:08

Googled a bit more, here's what I found..here's the butterfly crop formation..

http://youtube.com/watch?v=rWn7f-0_zc0

I know you like the number 4, Raph, I've always been drawn to 7's, myself.
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Re: Butterfly Effect

Unread postby Bas » Sat 01 Sep 2007, 17:58:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bas', 'I')'m not a big fan of symbols of any kind, as history has proven time and again that the political elite misuse them to accomplish their own political goals (the Third Reigh being the most infamous example). Usually symbols come into existence to put certain powerful ideas (sometimes for a certain time or place) but soon enough the symbols become more important than the ideas behind them and become tools of fundamentalism.

So thanks, Golem, Neopo, but no thanks.


it's actually what I said on my visit to the UN security counsil room when I visited UN HQ in NY in 2000 as the whole room is full of symbols, especially the wallpaper.
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Re: Butterfly Effect

Unread postby NEOPO » Sat 01 Sep 2007, 18:24:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bas', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bas', 'I')'m not a big fan of symbols of any kind, as history has proven time and again that the political elite misuse them to accomplish their own political goals (the Third Reigh being the most infamous example). Usually symbols come into existence to put certain powerful ideas (sometimes for a certain time or place) but soon enough the symbols become more important than the ideas behind them and become tools of fundamentalism.

So thanks, Golem, Neopo, but no thanks.


it's actually what I said on my visit to the UN security counsil room when I visited UN HQ in NY in 2000 as the whole room is full of symbols, especially the wallpaper.

like you said "thanks but no thanks" now move along, please.
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Re: Butterfly Effect

Unread postby Bas » Sat 01 Sep 2007, 18:27:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NEOPO', '
')like you said "thanks but no thanks" now move along, please.


ah, an anti-reaction to reality. You don't have a counter argument man, and I have.
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Re: Butterfly Effect

Unread postby TWilliam » Sat 01 Sep 2007, 20:26:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bas', 'I')'m not a big fan of symbols of any kind, as history has proven time and again that the political elite misuse them to accomplish their own political goals (the Third Reigh being the most infamous example). Usually symbols come into existence to put certain powerful ideas (sometimes for a certain time or place) but soon enough the symbols become more important than the ideas behind them and become tools of fundamentalism.

So thanks, Golem, Neopo, but no thanks.


Like it or not Bas, symbolism is unavoidable. Language is symbolic. Our experience of the world itself is symbolic representation occurring in the mind. If you communicate with others - or for that matter if you are a thinking human (to whatever degree) - then you are immersed in symbolism.
"It means buckle your seatbelt, Dorothy, because Kansas? Is goin' bye-bye... "
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Re: Butterfly Effect

Unread postby NEOPO » Sat 01 Sep 2007, 23:25:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bas', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NEOPO', '
')like you said "thanks but no thanks" now move along, please.


ah, an anti-reaction to reality. You don't have a counter argument man, and I have.

Oh reheeeeeely....
I could go all day long like the energizer bunny yet why waste the resources on a mind that is barely awakened? Patience grasshopper patience...

All comunications is symbolism yet what kind of messiah would I be to point out such an obvious thing as that? :lol:
It is like saying "water is fluid" while you stand there trying to "prove" that it is a solid.

If I could say it here I would yet I think it is time to check the flaming hall and say what I wish there :lol:
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Re: Butterfly Effect

Unread postby TWilliam » Sun 02 Sep 2007, 13:54:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('golem', 'B')asically NUMBERS and LETTERS are symbols.


C'mon "Gee" ;o) ... WORDS are symbols as well. Is ---> "chair" <--- something I sit on? No, it is a word that represents (symbolizes) the thing I happen to be sitting on at the moment... :o
"It means buckle your seatbelt, Dorothy, because Kansas? Is goin' bye-bye... "
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Re: Butterfly Effect

Unread postby skiwi » Sun 09 Sep 2007, 09:10:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('golem', 'B')asically NUMBERS and LETTERS are symbols.


C'mon "Gee" ;o) ... WORDS are symbols as well. Is ---> "chair" <--- something I sit on? No, it is a word that represents (symbolizes) the thing I happen to be sitting on at the moment... :o



You're lucky it is something you can now sit on :o :o

History of the Chair

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he chair is of extreme antiquity, although for many centuries and indeed for thousands of years it was an article of state and dignity rather than an article of ordinary use. "The chair" is still extensively used as the emblem of authority in the House of Commons in the United Kingdom and Canada, and in public meetings. It was not, in fact, until the 16th century that it became common anywhere.
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Re: Butterfly Effect

Unread postby mercurygirl » Mon 10 Sep 2007, 01:10:51

Speaking of symbols, this weekend I was in a small town and passed by a large Masonic building with a huge sign displaying golem's avatar.
Then I went to the farmers' market and a guy was doing acoustic music and sang a song called, "I wish I was a fireman". So G, you're not the only one seeing stuff everywhere!

TW is right, everything we as humans do is symbolic. Language and even thought. We get swept away by it. We can't be unconscious again, so we must classify it all. Blessings and curses. Life is on the move and will not be stopped.
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Re: Butterfly Effect

Unread postby entropyfails » Tue 11 Sep 2007, 11:45:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NEOPO', 'M')y point is that all action is karma, produces future cause and effect just as the thought that a butterflies wings flapping could cause a hurricane at some future date et etc.


You cannot separate cause and effect in this universe. They seem to be one thing, separated only by the inseparable Planck time. So positing karma, which is a cause separated from effect, must be wrong on some fundamental level.

Now it may be convenient to separate cause and effect for some purposes. This is what thought and science does. But for all this talk here of symbols many here fail to see that they use karma only as a convenient abstraction of reality... and a poor one.

People invent karma to make them feel better about their own actions. It is a nice feeling to say, "While I didn't do enough today, I at least did something and that good karma will help." We use it as a mental crutch.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NEOPO', 'T')he thought is that everything we do impacts something/someone somewhere.
Its a permaculture kinda thing. Think people think!
Consider as much as you can before you take action.


If you are talking about the butterfly effect, then you are talking about chaotic outcomes. If you are talking about chaotic outcomes then no matter how much you think about it... the outcome will be random.

Do you understand this point?

You have no real interest in any supposed "karma". If the butterfly effect is karma, then all you have done is proven that your thoughts and intentions do not matter!

What we all really need is the fear that ANY choice born of thought will be wrong. Only then will we see an authentic human response. If that happened the world would change overnight.
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Re: Butterfly Effect

Unread postby SDC » Thu 13 Sep 2007, 21:46:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NEOPO', 'w')hat kind of messiah would I be

Not that I want to start a flame war or anything like that, but I am currently amazed that I took you so seriously before. =/

If you were being sarcastic and playing on what people think you think about yourself, feel free to point out my stupidity.




Anyway, symbols. Symbols represent concepts, and a symbol can come to represent a concept other than the concept it originally represented. I think everyone here agrees on that. However, while symbols can hold a lot of power in that they represent ideas and ideas can be powerful, I do not believe that they hold any more power than the concept they represent.

A lot of people seem to think that the symbols themselves - not the concepts behind them - can hold lots of power (see: Raphael =P), usually that they explain the deep workings of the universe or something like that. This just seems like some kind of systematic superstition (couldn't think of a better way to describe it so don't bash me for using jargon that doesn't actually exist). It's like Alchemy. Sure, it could be right in some ways, but for the most part it seems as logical as worrying about black cats crossing your path to me.
I might be wrong.
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Re: Butterfly Effect

Unread postby TWilliam » Thu 13 Sep 2007, 23:49:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SDC', 'S')ure, it could be right in some ways, but for the most part it seems as logical as worrying about black cats crossing your path to me.


Hey, such a worry is completely logical - as anyone who owns, or has owned, a cat can tell you.

Cats (tho' not especially black ones) are notorious for getting "underfoot" at inopportune moments. Tripping and busting your nose is certainly not something I would consider "good" luck... :lol:
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Re: Butterfly Effect

Unread postby TWilliam » Sat 22 Sep 2007, 18:54:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('golem', '(')makes 13)


Apart from the zodiacal 13 - the Sun (Son) in the center surrounded by the twelve - and the myriad cultural spinoffs of that motif, I remember seeing something years ago about a discovery in the biological sciences that it actually takes 12 sperm working in concert against the outer wall of the egg in order for a 13th sperm to successfully penetrate. I don't recall if this applied solely to humans, mammals or all sexually reproducing species...
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Re: Butterfly Effect

Unread postby Morpheus » Sat 22 Sep 2007, 19:27:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('entropyfails', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NEOPO', 'M')y point is that all action is karma, produces future cause and effect just as the thought that a butterflies wings flapping could cause a hurricane at some future date et etc.


You cannot separate cause and effect in this universe. They seem to be one thing, separated only by the inseparable Planck time. So positing karma, which is a cause separated from effect, must be wrong on some fundamental level.

Now it may be convenient to separate cause and effect for some purposes. This is what thought and science does. But for all this talk here of symbols many here fail to see that they use karma only as a convenient abstraction of reality... and a poor one.

People invent karma to make them feel better about their own actions. It is a nice feeling to say, "While I didn't do enough today, I at least did something and that good karma will help." We use it as a mental crutch.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NEOPO', 'T')he thought is that everything we do impacts something/someone somewhere.
Its a permaculture kinda thing. Think people think!
Consider as much as you can before you take action.


If you are talking about the butterfly effect, then you are talking about chaotic outcomes. If you are talking about chaotic outcomes then no matter how much you think about it... the outcome will be random.

Do you understand this point?

You have no real interest in any supposed "karma". If the butterfly effect is karma, then all you have done is proven that your thoughts and intentions do not matter!

What we all really need is the fear that ANY choice born of thought will be wrong. Only then will we see an authentic human response. If that happened the world would change overnight.

:lol: as that is about all your "attack" and a weak one at that, deserves.
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Re: Butterfly Effect

Unread postby entropyfails » Thu 27 Sep 2007, 19:31:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Morpheus', '
'):lol: as that is about all your "attack" and a weak one at that, deserves.


I'm certain it is very difficult for you to rationally respond to this point. You want to believe in things that don't exits? Go ahead!

You people made up karma to make yourself feel better. Even worse, you didn't even make up karma, someone told you about it. Somebody else invented it, with no evidence. You believe it, with no evidence.

And until you can reject all of the nonsense that people have tried to fill your head with, you will miss the real mystery of reality. That seems very sad to me.



P.S. You are welcome to respond again, but please don't quote an entire post to only respond with one line. Chop it up into relevant parts, please.
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