[coyote]

That's impressive, gg3. I've always been a bit skeptical about the chances of intentional communities -- I feel that if an IC is to survive, then its members must all feel part of a single identity, and so become an actual tribe, to function in the long term against the stresses seeking to pull it apart. Once a serious crisis begins in earnest, it might be an easier matter holding the band together, as there is then a more immediate life or death benefit to members remaining and chipping in. In the meantime, before the crisis, stories of the failures of ICs abound (to the extent that ICs themselves abound). But with someone like you at the helm, your chances seem good. Good luck, and keep us updated on how it's going.

[davep]

I agree with Pops' approach.

1. What is 'doom'?

I see doom as a scenario where the population is unable to come to terms with the inevitable changes ahead. Doom is having no answers to the impending reality. Doom is passivity and its repercussions.

2. According to your own definition, are you a 'doomer'?

No.

3. Why or why not?

Because if I were a doomer (by my definition) I wouldn't envisage ways to improve the future. The future will arrive anyway. Let's at least do our best to make it bearable. We may or may not be able to achieve a sustainable future with something approaching our existing population. Strutting around with a doomer sandwich board proclaiming "The End Is Nigh" is of no use to anyone.

[Heineken]

Madpaddy, you silly.

Who says doom can't be fun?

[Heineken]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', 'D')oom is having no answers to the impending reality. Doom is passivity and its repercussions. . . . If I were a doomer (by my definition) I wouldn't envisage ways to improve the future. . . . Strutting around with a doomer sandwich board proclaiming "The End Is Nigh" is of no use to anyone.

[davep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', 'D')oom is having no answers to the impending reality. Doom is passivity and its repercussions. . . . If I were a doomer (by my definition) I wouldn't envisage ways to improve the future. . . . Strutting around with a doomer sandwich board proclaiming "The End Is Nigh" is of no use to anyone.

[MadMarcus]

Due to the general connotations of the word my personal definition of doom in a PO context is a rapid collapse to a remnent population (probably less then 1 billion) with little to no technological knowledge. I'd say that my use of the word "doom" is close to the uber-doom situation poster earlier.

I am not a doomer. I believe that descent will be slower then that with some areas feeling the full doom but many areas hanging on to a tolerable decent rate through increased efficiency and use of alternative energy. Personally I have no real problem with living through a decline and find it hard to imaging equating doom with just a loss of today's materials lifestyle (as one early reply in the thread did)

On the other hand I am not a cornicopean either. I have no faith in technology or science saving the day and allowing us to maintain our current global lifestyle. But I do have a (limited) faith in humanity. I doubt that there will be a global thermonuclear war. I doubt that there will be any human created super-bug. I suspect that we will muddle through; crash on a geologic time scale but really just decline on a human scale. The old and the weak will die (I'll be both before the biggest changes hit). The young will live a different life and our current age will become the "Golden Age" or Atlantis that future storytellers talk about.

[Ludi]

I deliberately avoid doomeristic contemplation because I'm prone to anxiety and depression. Being negative simply isn't a luxury I can afford! Some might call this naive or "living in a fantasy world," but, for me it's a survival strategy that gets me out of bed in the morning and out each day to do "back-breaking physical labor."

Optimists of the "everything is just going to get better and better" stripe aren't helpful or useful, in my opinion, because they can't recognise a problem in time to try to solve it, but tend, in my experience, to be caught unprepared by crisis after crisis

[threadbear]

Doom would look like a really mean hyper sexualized version of the 50's and early sixties. The tv show "Leave it to Beaver" would star Barbara Billingsly in a tight leotard, giving sex advice on HBO.

The show "Kids say the Darndest Things, would feature kids killing each other and torturing small animals, and talking about it. Mutual of Omaha's 'Wild Kingdom' with Marlin Perkins would feature animals having sex, the kinkier, the better. Andy of Mayberry would be a show about how a small town local sherriff attempts to maintain order in a town shut down by MalWart, while trying to spend quality time with his son Opie, the local meth dealer. Aunt Bea, mud wrestler and radical lesbian feminist helps out, while Goober pimps for a living.

So Doom is basically pretty much where we are now, and I'd like to see a change, at least culturally. I think a return to the stone age would be a step up.

[Heineken]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', 'D')oom is having no answers to the impending reality. Doom is passivity and its repercussions. . . . If I were a doomer (by my definition) I wouldn't envisage ways to improve the future. . . . Strutting around with a doomer sandwich board proclaiming "The End Is Nigh" is of no use to anyone.

[Ludi]

That sure looks like "giving up" to me, Heineken.


Are you saying that no humans can be saved? That if we try to set up a different ("sustainable") way of life that won't help anyone survive?

[dinopello]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'I') think a return to the stone age would be a step up.

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dinopello', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'I') think a return to the stone age would be a step up.

[Ferretlover]

I am still trying to develop my definition for Doom (forgive the babble, please):

So far, I think that it would be: Doom is knowing what we were able to do with FFs, and knowing that we are losing it because we were too lazy (as a species) to really understand it from discovery to total loss.
Doom is because we nearly always neglect or refuse to think outside the proverbial box.
Doom is because so many people still have no clue what is going on, what is going to happen, or that they probably won't even survive at the most basic level.
Doom is because there are a lot of people who have had hard lives, know that their futures are not going to get any better, and for whatever reason have decided not to even attempt to change the outcome of their lives.
Doom is trying to figure out what me & mine will need just for basic survival and trying to acquire it.
Doom for the future is like when you found out that Santa, the Easter Bunny, and the Good Fairy weren't real.. You knew they weren't, but you were kinda Hoping ....

[mmasters]

I would say doom to me means long-term chaos, a downward spiral of mega proportions. On a more personal level it would mean struggling to survive; suffering; being vulnerable and dealing with a seemingly endless amount of confusion, sickness, anger and irrationality from others.

[PenultimateManStanding]

Then there's this famous version of doom

[gg3]

Madpaddy, it would be a high honor to have you onboard in charge of community defense; you'd have to get into the US and ideally get citizenship, for yourself & family. As it is, we have some decently capable people onboard though clearly not at your level. I expect we'll also pick up some vets as soon as they're released from the quagmire in the desert. The area of Northern California we're in has a strong libertarian streak, so people up there are quite aware of the relevant issues when crunch time comes.

Coyote, I'm not at the helm; in corporate terms or municipal government terms I'm something like a department manager. Strictly speaking we're organized like a town council, and legally it's a 501c3 educational nonprofit. The key founders are highly capable people with oodles of practical experience.

Re. tribal: depends on how you define the term. We'd go with the Iroquois Confederacy version (rational representative democracy), but not with the Middle Eastern version.

Re. the IC failure rate: actually it's about the same as the small business failure rate. Neat, eh? As it is we have some people onboard who have been moderately successfull in small business so that helps.

Re. Ludi re. anxiety & depression: many of us go through that, a certain degree of it is normal in these times. However, whether it's a "reactive mood" (responding to external conditions) or an organic condition (brain chemistry), it's important for each of us to do what's necessary to take care of ourselves & those around us. Creative activity of any kind certainly helps; for example I can disengage from doomer mode when I'm doing engineering. Building stuff or otherwise working on solutions certainly helps: visible results.

And after all, the future is probabilistic. Humans have survived more & worse in the past. Every single one of our ancestors made it and lived to tell the tale, else we wouldn't be here, and there's a heck of a lot of ancestral knowledge that's latent in our genes. It will be very interesting to see what kinds of adaptive mechanisms come up in the near future that we haven't seen before.

[RdSnt]

Will you be following the traditional IC method of elections (choosing chiefs), or will you stick with the European electoral processes?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gg3', '
')Re. tribal: depends on how you define the term. We'd go with the Iroquois Confederacy version (rational representative democracy), but not with the Middle Eastern version.

Re. the IC failure rate: actually it's about the same as the small business failure rate. Neat, eh? As it is we have some people onboard who have been moderately successfull in small business so that helps.

.

[PenultimateManStanding]

Great, the Indian Guides version of mitigation. This is what I mean about ecovillages. Smokem Peace Pipe. Sorry for the cynicism, but this is the doom thread.

Washita

[threadbear]

Wow PMS--You've really thought this through! Pass the hemlock-

"Doom means having nowhere to go". That's probably the defining essence of doom, right there. Once we've trashed this planet, there really is no place else to go.

MMasters--"Doom means suffering" Could some of the suffering be ennobling, or do you think it will all be disabling?

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'W')ow PMS--You've really thought this through! Pass the hemlock-