[Omnitir]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', ' ')So if we don’t ever figure out how to overcome aspects of nature, how can we survive?

[Omnitir]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', ' ') Technology is just a tool. Our culture, our mindset is the problem. We need high technology to survive, but we also need a massive cultural and social paradigm change.

[Battle_Scarred_Galactico]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', ' ') Technology is just a tool. Our culture, our mindset is the problem. We need high technology to survive, but we also need a massive cultural and social paradigm change.

[bshirt]

I find this "technology" argument an interesting one. It's difficult to determine where to stand on it.

I can't deny that it would be a better world without atomic/nuclear bombs. Well, sure they've been a nice deterent for a while. They've helped stop World Wars where we slaughtered each other by the millions. But the downside is far, far too scary.

Technology has also allowed massive bureaucracy, ever growing "big brother" government intrusian into people's personal lives and required complexities (endless IRS forms, property taxes, zoning laws, cpu passwords, etc) that at some point are a burden.

Otoh, it's hard to deny that technology can indeed be a wonderful blessing. Who doesn't enjoy hot water on demand? Reading a book at night? Refrigerators? Electric or gas stoves? And so on...

I can see how it's possible to deal with the PO energy problem via downsizing and even prosper. I can even see that it's possible, in time, to discover another energy source.

But the population and bureaucracy problems are two items that seem simply overwhelming. I just can't see a realistic way out other than huge destruction via any combination of PO/GW/hyperinflation/etc.

Maybe Ibon or some other sharp poster here can. I sure hope so.

Still though, it seems to me that technology, if used wisely (I know...a huge "if") is a bigger asset and tool than many here claim. It's use though the millenniums has won many, many battles over mother nature. I wouldn't count it out.

[evilgenius]

One thing is clear. A characteristic of anyone that might find solutions and implement them is that they believe that they might work. Otherwise, eat, drink and be merry.

All of my life I have suffered from being too much of a cynic. PO has shown me how indulging in cynicism can be bad for myself and the world.

I do think the solutions are NOT merely technological. Any solution will come as a set of solutions. Part of that set will be tech, part will be a revised form of capitalism (or the next step), part will be a version of democracy that acknowledges local identity more so than present.

Technical solution alone may be possible, although absurd. The principle of survival shouldn't, however, crumble in the face of that absurdity.

BTW, Monte, I don't think you are saying we won't survive. I think I hear you saying most of us won't survive. I don't want to admit that, but I have to acknowledge it is the most likely scenario.

[Ferretlover]

Would it be fair to say that until humans change their mindset, we will be doomed (no pun intended) to repeat our errors over and over?
IMHO, we should be trained, almost from birth, how to function without destroying our environment. To have the least amount of negative impact on the planet no matter what we do...

[Cloud9]

I think the future will look a lot like Blade Runner.

[Omnitir]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Battle_Scarred_Galactico', '
')Omnitir, with your attitude you should be the most pro population reductionist / anti-capitalist around here.

Is burning all our remaining oil in cars and supplying for newcomers going to help achieve what you want to see ? I don't think so.

[EnergyUnlimited]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', '
')So you are ignoring 95-99% of population...
It is very unlikely that we will go extinct in short term, as you suggest, neither we will convert to sustainable paradigm.

[Narz]

Monte, your thinking is simplistic and your faith in man's helplessness is strange and intreging.

Deers on whatever that damn island where they destroied their habitat were dumb. They couldn't create any "fix", quick or otherwise. Your idea of "limits" are in your head. If you'd been alive 500 years ago you'd be claiming humans could never approach 1 billion people. You act like there is an objective limit "out there" and once it's reached we're gonna crash and nothing that we do between then and now matters. I didn't read this whole thread but I did read Ludi's "giving up" thread. You're ideology seems more religious than rational to me.

This is not meant to be insulting, regardless of whether it is or isn't I doubt it will shake your faith.

I do have one question though, that's been posted before. If you truly believe as you do, why do you post here so much? Isn't that squandered wealth (your time & the cost of your computer operation) rather than preparing? I mean, if you spent the whole term learning in the "Preparing for the Future" forum that'd be one thing but posting this "overshoot, overshoot, overshoot" stuff is quite time consuming, no?

Is it altruism? If so, how are you trying to save us? I assume you want to live (correct me if I'm wrong). How are you planning to be among the special few who don't have to die to save the rest?

Thanks for your time.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', ' ') Therefore, anyone that does not consider the future technology aspect, is not qualified to quantitatively state that there can just not be a technological fix.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', ' ') The only possible chance of increasing our odds of surviving what nature has planned for us, is to develop the appropriate level of science and technology.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bshirt', 'S')till though, it seems to me that technology, if used wisely (I know...a huge "if") is a bigger asset and tool than many here claim. It's use though the millenniums has won many, many battles over mother nature. I wouldn't count it out.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('evilgenius', ' ')BTW, Monte, I don't think you are saying we won't survive. I think I hear you saying most of us won't survive. I don't want to admit that, but I have to acknowledge it is the most likely scenario.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ferretlover', ' ')IMHO, we should be trained, almost from birth, how to function without destroying our environment. To have the least amount of negative impact on the planet no matter what we do...

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'M')onte, your thinking is simplistic and your faith in man's helplessness is strange and intreging.

[Ferretlover]

"It isn't mankind that needs to change, it is our culture."

But, how can we change one without changing the other? If we change one, don't we also change the other?

Is this one of those: If A =, and if B=, then C = A+ B problems.?

I have a headache....

[Narz]

Hi Monte. You talk about biology as if it's a static thing. We aren't reindeer. We can change biology. Look at high yielding rice strains & the way we defeat the 3rd dimension but living in skyscrapers. I'm not advocating or condemning these things just noting that humans have a funny way of stretching the limits. You may play with my analogy and call it a rubber band that will snap back at us (and certainly it will snap back in some ways) but in the end we have the capacity to alter nature to give us more than she ordinarily would.

Not to say lots of people may not die. But I don't think "carry capacity" is a static thing. Obviously it depends on how people live. Desertification is lowering carrying capacity. Likewise, stewardship of the land and permacultural practices can raise it. Would you disagree to this? I don't see how you can?

I mean, I'm assuming you want to help yourself and those you care about (maybe even complete strangers) survive in Arizona (which I imagine has a quite low carrying capacity if not for carefully thought out measures). So you must agree that making the planet livable (at least for some) is a worthy goal, right?

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ferretlover', '"')It isn't mankind that needs to change, it is our culture."

But, how can we change one without changing the other? If we change one, don't we also change the other?

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'H')i Monte. You talk about biology as if it's a static thing. We aren't reindeer. We can change biology. Look at high yielding rice strains & the way we defeat the 3rd dimension but living in skyscrapers. I'm not advocating or condemning these things just noting that humans have a funny way of stretching the limits. You may play with my analogy and call it a rubber band that will snap back at us (and certainly it will snap back in some ways) but in the end we have the capacity to alter nature to give us more than she ordinarily would.