$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('return1880s', 'V')ery good read, everyone!
I want to say again that we will be returning to technology of the 1880s. One that is much less toxic and pollutes very little.
The laws of nature and biology dictate carrying capacity. We will have a mass die off due to peak food, peak medicine, etc.
PeakOil is You
Prosperity over Preparation and the Denial of Reality
Re: Prosperity over Preparation and the Denial of Reality
by EnergyUnlimited » Wed 25 Jul 2007, 04:24:54
As a research chemist I can assure you that it is complete hubris to call 1880 technology less polluting than current one.
The only difference is that there were less people in 1880 and very few of them had access to this "less polluting" technology.
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Re: Prosperity over Preparation and the Denial of Reality
by Alcassin » Wed 25 Jul 2007, 06:21:25
Dear Pagan Gods...
Technology is no solution, it is scientific thinking about - "every day we know something more about the universe". Sure - universe is sprawling but finite and waiting for Big Freeze or Big Crunch. Ultimate Faith is death.
I don't believe in "technology will save us" - we used nuclear power to kill people first not to power them up, and nobody says Truman was insane. We live in insanity. Technological progress only made the WWI and WWII more cruel, not "humane". With sattelites we first spied each other, and then became the era of global TV, we used jet engines in fighters and bombers first, the internet was created to store classified data. Sure I like toys like iPod but still I see danger in technology, breakthroughs are made but then elites want to create better gun. Look at Einstein - he was against using and he didn't participated in project to make A-bomb but Niels Bohr and Oppenheimer were that greed that they helped to make profits from death. Insane - rather not - Einstein was that one who didn't want to let us win. Sorry man, that's the truth.
Singularity or Transhumanism - it's scientific numerology, astrology and fortune-telling. I know the concepts backwards and forwards and they are naive. If the people can't live with each other without harm then the belief that "nanorobots" or other superior technologies will help them to change their mentality is simply blind.
EnergyUnlimited - I think we share quite similar views. We will use 'green' solutions but they will not mantain current production and consumption rates. And in the world of scarce conflicts are inevitable. Once limits to growth are recognized then the paradigm of economy will shift that it is zero-sum game, and there is nowhere to escape.
Technology is no solution, it is scientific thinking about - "every day we know something more about the universe". Sure - universe is sprawling but finite and waiting for Big Freeze or Big Crunch. Ultimate Faith is death.
I don't believe in "technology will save us" - we used nuclear power to kill people first not to power them up, and nobody says Truman was insane. We live in insanity. Technological progress only made the WWI and WWII more cruel, not "humane". With sattelites we first spied each other, and then became the era of global TV, we used jet engines in fighters and bombers first, the internet was created to store classified data. Sure I like toys like iPod but still I see danger in technology, breakthroughs are made but then elites want to create better gun. Look at Einstein - he was against using and he didn't participated in project to make A-bomb but Niels Bohr and Oppenheimer were that greed that they helped to make profits from death. Insane - rather not - Einstein was that one who didn't want to let us win. Sorry man, that's the truth.
Singularity or Transhumanism - it's scientific numerology, astrology and fortune-telling. I know the concepts backwards and forwards and they are naive. If the people can't live with each other without harm then the belief that "nanorobots" or other superior technologies will help them to change their mentality is simply blind.
EnergyUnlimited - I think we share quite similar views. We will use 'green' solutions but they will not mantain current production and consumption rates. And in the world of scarce conflicts are inevitable. Once limits to growth are recognized then the paradigm of economy will shift that it is zero-sum game, and there is nowhere to escape.
Peak oil is only an indication and a premise of limits to growth on a finite planet.
Denial is the most predictable of all human responses.
Denial is the most predictable of all human responses.
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Alcassin - Tar Sands
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Re: Prosperity over Preparation and the Denial of Reality
by Ibon » Wed 25 Jul 2007, 12:14:07
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', '
')So you are ignoring 95-99% of population...
It is very unlikely that we will go extinct in short term, as you suggest, neither we will convert to sustainable paradigm.
')So you are ignoring 95-99% of population...
It is very unlikely that we will go extinct in short term, as you suggest, neither we will convert to sustainable paradigm.
90-95% is about the right percentage of the population that always has and always will fall in line with the status quo and content themselves with not questioning, whether it be their religions, consumptive habits or any other aspect of their culture. We do not require 90-95% of the population to have an epiphany of understanding of the ecological imbalances in order to effectively mitigate. If the cultural norms value sustainability the masses will follow these norms as blindly as they do the unsustainable ones today. Religious, political and economic systems will be forced into compliance from external events.
We will not go extinct in the short term. I never suggested that.
100 years from today we will still have an imperfect world with 90% following the status quo and the other 5-10% questioning. But it will be a world that will have been forced to learn to live within the constraints imposed by nature. And in the process our cultural norms will include following sustainable principals. Otherwise we will slowly go extinct.
There are times that one can look at this from a rather disspassionate place, becoming rather ambiguous on whether humans survive or not these challenges. That disspassionate place should not be confused with indifference. It is more like a deep acknowledgement that sustainability is not really a choice, not a political fight or a religious crusade but rather a requirement for a species survival.
The current overshoot of humans on the planet has created a global population with cultural norms that simply have no chance of continuing.
Now the interesting times begin.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')We will just fall into miserable, conflicted mess with no hope to find a way out of that.
This is so reductionist and lacking in any imagination. This is EU's personal amulet, his mantra that he carries with him thoughout the day. Only he knows what purpose this serves him.
Patiently awaiting the pathogens. Our resiliency resembles an invasive weed. We are the Kudzu Ape
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website: http://www.mounttotumas.com
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website: http://www.mounttotumas.com
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Re: Prosperity over Preparation and the Denial of Reality
by evilgenius » Wed 25 Jul 2007, 17:27:10
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('evilgenius', ' ') I suspect, in fact, that everyone that has ever lived could probably live at once on the planet given the right way of living.
Good grief! And pigs can fly!
The right way of living is limited competition, not totalitarian agriculture. The total population of the world has remained essentially constant for most of the history of mankind. World population fluctuated between 10 million and 300 million for most of the last 10,000 years, never reaching 1 billion until about 1850.
Estimates of the number of human beings who have ever lived on Earth range from 45 billion to 125 billion.
Yeah, Monte, it would be a whole different kind of existence. That doesn't mean that it couldn't be made to happen, though. It only means that if it were it would require a whole different level of organization (yes, and technology). Neither you nor I might like to live there, but it could be done. Such are the people (with their food grown in vats and not in fields) that line the possible future. Of course, we could go back to quill pens dripped in ink.
The point is to constantly harp on population alone, outside of the rest, decays your perspective.
When it comes down to it, the people will always shout, "Free Barabbas." They love Barabbas. He's one of them. He has the same dreams. He does what they wish they could do. That other guy is more removed, more inscrutable. He makes them think. "Crucify him."
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