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THE Detroit Thread (merged)

A forum for discussion of regional topics including oil depletion but also government, society, and the future.

Re: Detroit's last chain supermarket closing its doors

Unread postby Tyler_JC » Sun 15 Jul 2007, 18:13:40

I have a friend that manages a bunch of government-subsidized real estate.
These folks are required to pay about $15 a month in rent. That's right, you heard me, $15 a month.
Guess what % of them are delinquent on a regular basis?
Some people just aren't responsible enough to take care of themselves. Sadly, Detroit has many people like that and so long as those people are encouraged to stay put thanks to government handouts, they will continue to prevent Detroit from making a comeback.
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Re: Detroit's last chain supermarket closing its doors

Unread postby vision-master » Sun 15 Jul 2007, 20:54:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')ome people just aren't responsible enough to take care of themselves. Sadly, Detroit has many people like that and so long as those people are encouraged to stay put thanks to government handouts, they will continue to prevent Detroit from making a comeback.

With what? A bunch of fast food joints!
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Re: Detroit's last chain supermarket closing its doors

Unread postby denverdave » Mon 16 Jul 2007, 02:06:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')ome people just aren't responsible enough to take care of themselves. Sadly, Detroit has many people like that and so long as those people are encouraged to stay put thanks to government handouts, they will continue to prevent Detroit from making a comeback.

With what? A bunch of fast food joints!

Actually, I don't think Detroit making a comeback is all that far fetched. As far as economic trends go, the 21st. century might be just like the 20th. century in reverse, with a return of manufacturing in America. Probably not cars, but maybe bicycles, hand tools, locomotives and rolling stock. There will be all kinds of shit we need post-peak, and to the extent that we can still make anything at all, we will probably make it in the U.S.

Also, there is usually a good reason why cities are built where they are, and Detroit is no different. It is right on the Great Lakes which gives it access to waterways and fresh water, and has close access to farmland.
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Re: Detroit's last chain supermarket closing its doors

Unread postby TommyJefferson » Mon 16 Jul 2007, 02:06:12

I asked you about free will you start talking about Katrina and fast food restaurants.

What is your point?
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Re: Detroit's last chain supermarket closing its doors

Unread postby pea-jay » Mon 16 Jul 2007, 03:39:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TommyJefferson', 'T')he fact that the citizens of Detroit elected horrible, corrupt politicians for the last 35 years had nothing to do with Detroit's current status as America's Zimbabwe.

The local political establishment is merely a reflection of who's left to vote. Do not mistake political leadership in a democracy as a leading indicator of "decline" or much of anything else. It is merely reflective of those who bother to show up at the polls. In detroit, just about everyone who could make something of themselves left. And they left because there was no opportunity, not because the crooks managed to elect one of their own.

Almost every major metro area has a huge contingent of poor. What differentiates the "basket case cities" from the "successful" ones is the presence (or absence) of other economic groups and an economic base to support them. Not the poor themselves...they're present no matter what.
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Re: Detroit's last chain supermarket closing its doors

Unread postby pea-jay » Mon 16 Jul 2007, 04:14:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Mircea', 'W')hat happens is people and businesses start fleeing to areas with lower tax rates (not just whites, but blacks also) while simultaneously those who desire freebies start flocking to the city. This starts a downward spiral as the tax base erodes resulting in declining revenues for the city, which then increases taxes further to pay for burgeoning social service budget, accelerating the flight of people and businesses. Unable to raise taxes further, the city then begins cutting non-social services, like the arts, police, fire and safety, recreation and infrastructure maintenance in order pay for the increasing burden on social services which is now fueled by the rapid expansion of HUD Section 8 funded housing created when those who actually worked and paid taxes fled. Crime, prostitution, gambling, drugs, and gang violence become rampant and the city is essentially dead.

This is a simplistic analysis. You've got the downward spiral correct, though the action (taxation, social services) of the city governments usually play no role in initiating this cycle. Big Auto and Big Steel didnt abandon what we now call Rust Belt cities because those jurisdiction raised taxes to provide locally needed or desired services. They left because they could produce cheaper offshore or were buried when an offshore competitor beat them to it or a domestic competitor in a southern or western state with looser labor provisions opened up shop and hired illegal immigrants to do the work. THATS what killed our big industry, not the Nanny-ocracy our Right-wing friends would like us to believe. In today's terms it would be akin to expecting actions by the City of Cupertino or San Jose would drive out firms like Apple because of their personal or property tax rates or social service provisions. That's nonsense of course. Our industrial patterns are set at a national level by government action (or inaction) and our cities are left to deal with the results. Some "get it", most dont.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f you wanted to salvage Detroit, and Gary, Indiana and any other urban area with problems, the fastest cheapest solution is to disband the Department of Housing and Urban Development or at least do away with HUD sponsored housing.


But what about the private slum ownership? Many places have no public housing components at all, yet have fearsome slums. Plus the rust belt has tons of abandoned (private) housing and commercial slums that quickly get taken over by the criminal elements.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')othing will destroy a city or section of town faster than HUD housing. Dismantle the program and I guarantee you'll see movement and lots of it. Half of Detroit would be emptied out in 6 months or less.

Half of detroit has already been dismantled and that's with no federal policy whatsoever.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') know the whiny liberals will cry rivers of tears, but there's nothing illegal, unethical or immoral about 2 or 3 families pooling their resources and sharing a 2 or 3 bedroom apartment or rented house. If both illegal and legal immigrants can do it, then so can native born Americans.
For those who insist on paying for the housing of others, then I insist on group homes. What better way to hold the hand of someone who's too stupid or unwilling to act responsibly every second of their life than with a group home, where you can have a 9:00 PM curfew, and lights out at 11:00 PM and assign chores so they can learn a good work ethic and responsibility, and chaperon their visitors etc.

THere is no aspect of the housing issue that lends itself to a simplisic right wing sound bite answer. As a whole, most people would rather attend to their personal needs without the assistance of any one else, be it a family member, charity or government. Unfortunately not everyone is intellegent enough "pull themselves up" by their own bootstraps.

The fact is intelligence is more or less distributed in a bell curve, with a small percentage of hyper intellegent and mentally retard at either end with a vast majority trending somewhere in the middle. In an optimal situation the functioning economy would have opportunities for those with even a modest level of intellegence on upward and those opportunities would provide enough income for those families/households to make ends meet sans government "interference" with only a small percentage needing some form of assistance or if necessary, institutionalization.

We came close to that from WWII to the 1960s.
At the moment our economic system prevents this from occuring. We have far too many people (the normal distribution really) with far too few jobs matching their intelligence or failing to provide a wage capable of supporting them or their families. And to add insult to injury, we aggrevate this further by continuing to import additional low skill employees to compete for the low skill jobs here. We make it difficult for those to change their standing through education and even that is no guarentee either.
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Re: Detroit's last chain supermarket closing its doors

Unread postby pea-jay » Mon 16 Jul 2007, 04:17:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('denverdave', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')ome people just aren't responsible enough to take care of themselves. Sadly, Detroit has many people like that and so long as those people are encouraged to stay put thanks to government handouts, they will continue to prevent Detroit from making a comeback.

With what? A bunch of fast food joints!

Actually, I don't think Detroit making a comeback is all that far fetched. As far as economic trends go, the 21st. century might be just like the 20th. century in reverse, with a return of manufacturing in America. Probably not cars, but maybe bicycles, hand tools, locomotives and rolling stock. There will be all kinds of shit we need post-peak, and to the extent that we can still make anything at all, we will probably make it in the U.S.
Also, there is usually a good reason why cities are built where they are, and Detroit is no different. It is right on the Great Lakes which gives it access to waterways and fresh water, and has close access to farmland.

I'd say long term, Detroit or Gary are more viable than Phoenix and Vegas.
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Re: Detroit's last chain supermarket closing its doors

Unread postby Boris555 » Mon 16 Jul 2007, 15:39:58

From what I've heard, the race and socioeconomic makeup of the clientele is not the issue here.
Sure, the shoplifting losses are higher, but you crank the prices up a couple percent to cover that.
What drives BIG businesses out of the CITY of Detroit (not the 'burbs) is that the unions have such a stranglehold on ANY business in the city.
From what I hear, you have to pay a grocery bag boy about $15/hour, plus full benefits (medical, 4 wks vac, etc.) under the UFCW contract in Detroit. God knows what the checkers and stockers get.
Here in TX we have plenty of big grocery stores in high-crime areas, and they do fine. But the bagboys get just over minumum wage.
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Re: Detroit's last chain supermarket closing its doors

Unread postby vision-master » Mon 16 Jul 2007, 20:26:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'F')rom what I hear, you have to pay a grocery bag boy about $15/hour, plus full benefits (medical, 4 wks vac, etc.) under the UFCW contract in Detroit. God knows what the checkers and stockers get.
Here in TX we have plenty of big grocery stores in high-crime areas, and they do fine. But the bagboys get just over minumum wage.

Yeah, it the Unions fault!
I bet those lousy checkers & stockers get $18 hr + benefits. The nerve. Pass the fries & burger pleaze...... I got to fill up the Escalade.
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Re: Detroit's last chain supermarket closing its doors

Unread postby I_Like_Plants » Tue 17 Jul 2007, 00:08:28

Yeah those goddamn Unions, fucking communists. Bet they all have a picture of Lenin on the wall and expect fucking health care. Fuckers.

Goddamnit, where are our ROBOTS??? Fucking Robot Olympics (one of the few, if any, activities allowed to legally use the O-word) our kids are doing and still no robot workers developed??? Come on Sony, when will we be able to replace the working class with Asimos? Or better yet Chinese-slave-made cheap knockoffs of Asimos? Then we can just kill off the working class, what a wonderful new world it will be...
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Re: Detroit's last chain supermarket closing its doors

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 17 Jul 2007, 00:16:58

Maybe one of the extremely wealthy NBA or NFL or MLB players who has taken millions out of Detroit could help out by opening a supermarket in the city?

Magic Johnson (former Laker great) has been opening Starbucks, theatres and other businesses in Watts. 8)
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Re: Detroit's last chain supermarket closing its doors

Unread postby vision-master » Tue 17 Jul 2007, 09:07:06

I got my "coke" habit to maintain.............
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Re: Detroit's last chain supermarket closing its doors

Unread postby Boris555 » Tue 17 Jul 2007, 10:38:15

Yeah those goddamn Unions, fucking communists. Bet they all have a picture of Lenin on the wall and expect fucking health care. Fuckers.

Okay, you go ahead and go back to blaming it on the darker races and continue your misunderstanding of simple economics, then.

It's easier to be racist than to think.
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Re: Detroit's last chain supermarket closing its doors

Unread postby vision-master » Tue 17 Jul 2007, 16:10:25

If you fuckers down South weren't so brainwashed into thinking unions are so bad, maybe the place wouldn't be so loaded with trailer trash.
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Re: Detroit's last chain supermarket closing its doors

Unread postby Tyler_JC » Tue 17 Jul 2007, 19:43:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', 'I')f you fuckers down South weren't so brainwashed into thinking unions are so bad, maybe the place wouldn't be so loaded with trailer trash.

Whoa now.
Can't we all just get along?
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Re: Detroit's last chain supermarket closing its doors

Unread postby Boris555 » Tue 17 Jul 2007, 23:38:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', 'I')f you fuckers down South weren't so brainwashed into thinking unions are so bad, maybe the place wouldn't be so loaded with trailer trash.

So not only do you blame Detroit's problems on black people, you are also against poor white folks.
You're a real humanitarian, vision-master. And a great ad hominem debater.
Anyone have any real input on this issue?
For the record, the economy in the south is doing great, with and without unions. I've belonged to three unions in my life (UFCW, TEU, AFSCME), all in Texas. Now I have a professional job. I don't know much about the economy up north. I hope it's doing well.
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Re: Detroit's last chain supermarket closing its doors

Unread postby vision-master » Wed 18 Jul 2007, 09:15:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'R')onald Reagan once criticized those who seemed to always find a cloud behind every silver lining. Nothing has changed since he was president. For some, rising income inequality outweighs having economic expansion in 261 of the 276 months since Reagan took office, including a technological revolution, a property valuation boom, and near-mastery over inflation.
Much has been made lately of a publication by the Center for Budget and Policy Priorities (CBPP), a liberal Washington think tank, on the growing income disparity in the United States and in Texas. By its measure, Texas has one of the worst income disparities between those with high incomes and those with low and middle incomes in the nation.

http://www.texaspolicy.com/tppn_archive ... 1138831113
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Re: Detroit's last chain supermarket closing its doors

Unread postby Nickel » Wed 18 Jul 2007, 10:52:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Boris555', 'F')rom what I hear, you have to pay a grocery bag boy about $15/hour, plus full benefits (medical, 4 wks vac, etc.) under the UFCW contract in Detroit. God knows what the checkers and stockers get.
Here in TX we have plenty of big grocery stores in high-crime areas, and they do fine. But the bagboys get just over minumum wage.

Yeah, it sucks when people expect to be able to make a living and look after their families just because they have a job, however basic. How much better a society works when it has a history of slavery to buttress the idea that comfort and security accrue to the elite, and God justly punishes the weak and disadvantaged.

I fail to see how humanity is served by the philosophy that the people who actually do the things that keep society going on a daily basis ought to live in squalor and hardship so that guys who never lift a finger because their grandfathers got lucky can have three yachts instead of just one.
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Re: Detroit's last chain supermarket closing its doors

Unread postby Boris555 » Wed 18 Jul 2007, 10:54:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', 'R')onald Reagan once criticized those who seemed to always find a cloud behind every silver lining. Nothing has changed since he was president. For some, rising income inequality outweighs having economic expansion in 261 of the 276 months since Reagan took office, including a technological revolution, a property valuation boom, and near-mastery over inflation.
Much has been made lately of a publication by the Center for Budget and Policy Priorities (CBPP), a liberal Washington think tank, on the growing income disparity in the United States and in Texas. By its measure, Texas has one of the worst income disparities between those with high incomes and those with low and middle incomes in the nation.
http://www.texaspolicy.com/tppn_archive ... 1138831113

Yep, nothing like giving a partial quote, vision-master:
From further down in the EXACT same article:
There are a lot of reasons for the rise in income disparity, including the fact that the baby boomer generation has moved into its highest-earning years. Texas especially has a large, young immigrant population that pulls the low-income average down.

A sure way to make income disparity even worse is to follow the CBPP recommendations that only discourage job growth with the minimum wage, dissuade work and self-reliance with welfare, reward non-productivity with unemployment benefits, and destroy incentives to innovate and invest with an income tax.

A free market, with a growing economy, benefits everyone. And even envy cannot tarnish that silver lining.

So basically he's saying we're doing things right here, not wrong, and that the CBPP is full of crap. Just the opposite of what you are trying to say. Be careful when picking and choosing your quotes, sparky.
Sorry you're job isn't going well up north. Maybe if you'd stop blaming the minorities and start working harder you could make some more money.
Hey, try the oil industry!
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Re: Detroit's last chain supermarket closing its doors

Unread postby vision-master » Wed 18 Jul 2007, 11:01:55

THE SOUTH:

Low Wages & the biggest burden on the Federal Government. :razz:
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