[vision-master]

Europeans, can you give some comments/ feedback about your national health care system.

[Tanada]

I guess nobody cares, I was looking for answers here too.

[Rafa]

Well, the original system was quite good (all spending covered by the State - a better use of our taxes than the military imho-, universal health coverage, nobody left out).
But the US model has been pushed by right wing governments, so now there is in various european countries various of the problems in the US: private medecine, private insurances, high costs.
Despite all, it is still much better than in the US, as there is a big public resistance against the destruction of public health; also, some countries have better kept the original public health too.

Health, education, police and army are the four things that shouldn't be privatized; when a country privatizes one (or several) of those, that country is jeopardizing its future.

[I_Like_Plants]

As they say, no news is good news.

[EnergyUnlimited]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', 'E')uropeans, can you give some comments/ feedback about your national health care system.

[EnergyUnlimited]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Rafa', '
')Health, education, police and army are the four things that shouldn't be privatized; when a country privatizes one (or several) of those, that country is jeopardizing its future.

[TommyJefferson]

To watch the flow of history is to observe two great streams of activity.

In the private sector, we find innovation, efficiency, cost cutting, human service, dynamism, and problem solving. In the public sector we find stagnation, bureaucracy, inefficiency, cost overruns, human coercion, and problem creating.

If the government alone had been in charge for the last 500 years, our world would look very different. Indeed, we might have no civilization to speak of. But fortunately the market – meaning innovating and cooperating human beings – seems to find a way around the problems that government has created.

This is nowhere more true than in the medical sector. It is thanks to the market that there is more medical information available today than ever before in history, more life-saving techniques, more access to services, and more choice. Ideally, we would have radical reform so that government programs would be abolished, medical cartels smashed, and medical service provision wholly privatized.

But what if that doesn't happen? It could be that 50 years from now, the competitive private sector, with its dazzling capacity for finding ways around every barrier, will be completely dominant in the medical industry, and those sectors that have lived off government largess will be reduced to near insignificance. For the sake of our health and prosperity, let us hope for this as a 2nd best solution to the complete separation of health and state.

Ideally we would come to see health and medicine the way it's been seen in the whole of human history prior to the century of socialism. At every level and in every sector, it should be subject to market discipline. The money we use to purchase medical services should be private money, whether out of our own bank accounts or from charitable sources. We need to rethink the meaning of medical insurance, which, if it exists at all, should only apply to catastrophic cases to cover life contingencies over which we have no control. And of course we need freedom for all schools of treatment.

The path for progress here, as in every aspect of economics and civilization, lies with privatization, the elimination of restrictions and welfare, and freedom itself.

[Falconoffury]

Tommy, I think you are forgetting one important element that makes privatization work, and that's competition. It doesn't make sense for a country's military to have competition, so it's public. Certain security companies such as Black Water have been on the rise lately, but historically, it hasn't made a whole lot of sense to have a competitive market for the armed forces.

If a private company corners a market, we start to lose all those advantages that privatization gives us. These companies no longer have to work as hard to hold their customers. It becomes much easier to lie in order to protect the monopoly. It can even become necessary.

You think we have more choices? If you get cancer in the United States, you have at most three choices, chemotherapy, radiation therapy, or surgery. A number of treatments for cancer have been developed throughout the world that are much safer, and effective from what I have read. The private drug companies go out of their way to discredit these claims. Money has overtaken health. They want to keep you alive just long enough to keep paying everything you have for expensive drugs, treatments, and surgeries.

So let's ask the question, does it make sense for the health care system to be a competitive market? I personally think it doesn't make sense. At least a public system is at the mercy of the voters.

[vision-master]

Problem with private medical insurance is they are all about profit. How do you think our Police & Fire departments would run if privatized.

[I_Like_Plants]

The problem with this "profit is good" stream of thought, and this has disturbed economists, social Darwinists, sociologists, and especially neocons, is that most humans are not psychopaths.

Laizzes (sp) faire economics is based on humans acting as psychopaths. The RAND guys tried out various John Nash designed games on their secretaries, and the secretaries always, always, chose to cooperate. The only people they could get to play the games ruthlessly were trained economists - and psychopaths.

Our knowledge of economics is based on what I'll call "first order" self interest. Look out for No. 1. Humans and even jackals and birds and bugs and so on, are being found to very often operate on 2nd, 3rd, etc orders of self-interest. The mathematics gets VERY complicated in economics, and with the decline in energy available to run supercomputers, it's doubtful real human behavior will be fully mathamaticalized. Thank God.

[Plantagenet]

The idea that "cooperation" isn't part of private industry is silly.

Small businesses and large businesses are teams composed of individuals who voluntarily cooperate at work. Japanese companies, in particular, spend a lot of time trying to develop a "team spirit" amoung employees to enourage greater cooperation and teamwork.

Businesses in capitalist countries also have to cooperate with one-another. Any company that lies and doesn't honor its agreements isn't going to get any more business.

Businesses also have to cooperate with and do a good job serving customers. If they don't serve the customer, he/she will go to the competition and won't be coming back.

The WORST service and worst companies I've ever dealt with have been socialized entities in communist countries. They act like psychopaths. They don't have to do a good job because there is no competition. Thats why government stores in communist countries had empty shelves, and restaurants in communist countries would take hours to serve the few customers who bothered to go---they had NO COMPETITION.

[I_Like_Plants]

Planted-agent - US vs Cuba. The numbers speak for themselves.

[Falconoffury]

The only competition I see in the health care industry is one company making a slightly better painkiller, or more convenient antacid. None of these companies want to rock the boat. I don't see any drug companies releasing studies on how dangerous a drug is from a competing company. They slightly 1up each other here and there but they aren't mortal enemies.

Cooperation is good for businesses that supplement each other, such as tire manufacturers and car manufacturers. It's bad for businesses that should be in competition. They can corner a market and then do whatever they want. They support one another and protect one another when they are attacked from some sort of consumer watch group. Meanwhile, whatever groups that honestly support the consumer are outnumbered by the army of lawyers behind big business.

Privatization of an industry just doesn't work unless you have healthy competition. Without it, you have big business taking over everything, and that is facism.

[Bas]

Just my two Euro cents:

I don't know that much about the health care industry in Europe apart that it works fine in Holland (And I think in the rest of W. Europe apart from Brittain). Here you are required to have healthcare insurance and you get rebate from the government when you earn under 2 times minimum wage.

If you don't have health insurance and you can go to the docter but since you're obliged by law to have one and it's quite cheap, even if you have to pay back insurance, it never leads to problems in this regard. (at least I've never (ever actually) heard about that)

Still we have the private element here, insurers compete with eachother in price and "own-risk" for some treatments, or things you might have to pay for yourself in part. All "expensive" procedures you are insured for as this is required by law, as well as most things you want to visit your house doctor for.

The downsides: Medical staff isn't paid as much as in America, but enough to not go on strike, though there have been threats of that in the late nineties. Also in general it takes more of management than when you let the free market ride free; this, also in the late 90's let to waitinglists for certain procedures in the hospital.

All in all, I'm glad I live in Holland for this, as totally socialized medicine doesn't seem to work in Britain (though it does seem to work very well in Denmark) and you don't have to pay your ass off for health insurance like in America. Also (but that may be my caring inclination) I'm glad that the people I know, or in my city don't have to worry about their health insurance.

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('I_Like_Pants', 'P')lanted-agent - US vs Cuba. The numbers speak for themselves.

[vision-master]

Shut down all those "activities" in Nevada and see what happens.

[Bas]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bas', 'J')ust my two Euro cents:

I don't know that much about the health care industry in Europe apart that it works fine in Holland (And I think in the rest of W. Europe apart from Brittain). Here you are required to have healthcare insurance and you get rebate from the government when you earn under 2 times minimum wage.

If you don't have health insurance and you can go to the docter but since you're obliged by law to have one and it's quite cheap, even if you have to pay back insurance, it never leads to problems in this regard. (at least I've never (ever actually) heard about that)

Still we have the private element here, insurers compete with eachother in price and "own-risk" for some treatments, or things you might have to pay for yourself in part. All "expensive" procedures you are insured for as this is required by law, as well as most things you want to visit your house doctor for.

The downsides: Medical staff isn't paid as much as in America, but enough to not go on strike, though there have been threats of that in the late nineties. Also in general it takes more of management than when you let the free market ride free; this, also in the late 90's let to waitinglists for certain procedures in the hospital.

All in all, I'm glad I live in Holland for this, as totally socialized medicine doesn't seem to work in Britain (though it does seem to work very well in Denmark) and you don't have to pay your ass off for health insurance like in America. Also (but that may be my caring inclination) I'm glad that the people I know, or in my city don't have to worry about their health insurance.

[I_Like_Plants]

I kinda know an American gal who escaped and lived in Holland - she was constantly surprised, it's like she went to heaven!

I have a lot going on right now, and will need some recovery time, but if I can get together some "portable" skills, escape to a non-english-speaking part of Europe would be something I would consider a lifetime accomplishment.

[Plantagenet]

I had good experiences with socialized medicine when I lived in Belgium for a year and in New Zealand for a year.

I've also had very good experiences with my health insurance and medical care here in the U.S.

[I_Like_Plants]

Planted-agent, we all know it's great in the US for the rich (by which I mean you or your daddy, probably your daddy).