[Plantagenet]

I suggest you try writing fiction for a career.

[vision-master]

Go back to prep school where ya belong!

[pea-jay]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '
')Cuba has gone from being the richest country in Latin America to competing for having the lowest per capita income with countries like Haiti, and it took only 50 years of misrule to accomplish this economic disaster.

[pea-jay]

There are plenty of places where the "market" fails to provide or make the most beneficial decisions. Falconofury mentioned defense, which is a classical example of a public good. So is universal education. We all benefit if all our children are educated. Another is civic services (police and fire protection).

Can those services be supplied by the private sector? Absolutely. But without a governmental redistribution of services to all, a limited few (the wealthy) would receive top notch protection and education, a few more would receive some, and the majority would see nothing at all. It may be a free-marketer paradise but it wouldnt be particulary good for the citizenry in general, most of which would be poorer nor would it be good for businesses either if they are forced to dedicate more funds to site security, fire protection, and educating their workers only to have a smaller market to sell their goods to since the overall wealth levels would be lower.

Aside from a few hard core types, most people are accepting of this role of government.

Road building is another. I personally dont drive too much. But i do benefit in a well built road system to provide me with my needed goods and services. Relying on the private sector for this results in a more constrained transportation network (and a more limited market for firms to operate in)

I could go on.

But here is another joke of "privatization" or the myth that the private sector can do it cheaper.

Governments provide a lot of needed services, but they also create their own needs, like janitorial services. They could hire help at $15-25hr, including benefits to do the work or they could pay a firm $10-15 an hour for a contract worker. Sounds like the private sector could do it cheaper right? Superficially, yeah. But that $10-15 paid per employee goes to pay 5.25 (min wage) to $8 hr w/no benefits to the employee and $2-5 profit to the employer, less overhead and other company related costs of doing business. The employees doing the same work are obviously poorer. Duh. So where are they and their families getting healthcare from? Either the government via Medicaid or just showing up at the emergency room. How about the taxes they are paying? Hmm, not so much. Lower incomes net lower tax bills, plus they live in less affluent areas that net local governments fewer property tax receipts. They also shop for fewer goods. Then, if the firm supplying the labor is out-of town, the profits more often than not, leave the local economy.

So I ask? How is THIS more efficient. Pay a PRIVATE firm LESS to the SAME JOB that the GOVERNMENT could do for MORE, but PAY MORE IN incedental costs and yield LESS to the local economy. Yup, sounds like another shining example of private sector efficiency.

OKAY this discussion so far has nothing to do with health care. It is my assertion that health care is a public good (overall health of the population is of value to everyone) that does not obey the conventional laws of supply and demand.

If you are in an accident and are broken and bleeding are you going to get fixed up if it cost you a $100. Sure. $1000? Yep. $1,000,000? Still yes. In fact, you dont even know the bill until its done. So how is the "market" going to make this "work".

It cant. A market driven good requires an equal exchange/understanding of information, a reasonable relationship between supply and demand, a set of alternatives and no requirement that a good or service be provided. Health care fails all of these.

It's proof positive that any that offers a "market based solution" to health care is really just full of shit wrapped up in fancy Econodoublespeak to get mindless nitwits to go along against their own needs.

US healthcare is not market driven at the moment and really combines the worst aspects of the "market" with "socialized medicine" that both liberals and conservative types both love to hate. It's unsustainable and will collapse. The only question is what will replace it.

[vision-master]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'G')overnments provide a lot of needed services, but they also create their own needs, like janitorial services. They could hire help at $15-25hr, including benefits to do the work or they could pay a firm $10-15 an hour for a contract worker. Sounds like the private sector could do it cheaper right? Superficially, yeah. But that $10-15 paid per employee goes to pay 5.25 (min wage) to $8 hr w/no benefits to the employee and $2-5 profit to the employer, less overhead and other company related costs of doing business. The employees doing the same work are obviously poorer. Duh. So where are they and their families getting healthcare from? Either the government via Medicaid or just showing up at the emergency room. How about the taxes they are paying? Hmm, not so much. Lower incomes net lower tax bills, plus they live in less affluent areas that net local governments fewer property tax receipts. They also shop for fewer goods. Then, if the firm supplying the labor is out-of town, the profits more often than not, leave the local economy.

[Rafa]

What characterizes private buziness is not competition (there are monopolies, either ones due to only one company providing a given thing, or those monopolies enforced by law, I'm talking about the so called "intellectual property", the copyrights and patents are just law-enforced monopolies granted to a given company); it is profit.

And here is the problem, some activities cannot be done for profit, health, education, army and police for example.

If police is private, it means that you only get protection if you are rich, and if you are poor you can get stolen without the police doing anything.

If health is private, it means you only get proper medical treatment if you are rich, and if you are poor you are left to die.

Some things may work well when handled trough profit and market mechanisms; if you cannot afford to buy a car or a computer, for example, you may be frustrated, but it is not a thing that can endanger your live.
But if you cannot afford proper medical treatment because the market puts it at a too high cost for you, then your life is in danger.
Some things must be handled in a non profit and non market way.

[Pretorian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('I_Like_Plants', ' ')escape to a non-english-speaking part of Europe would be something I would consider a lifetime accomplishment.

[Pretorian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pea-jay', '
')US healthcare is not market driven at the moment and really combines the worst aspects of the "market" with "socialized medicine" that both liberals and conservative types both love to hate. It's unsustainable and will collapse. The only question is what will replace it.

[I_Like_Plants]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Rafa', '
')If police is private, it means that you only get protection if you are rich, and if you are poor you can get stolen without the police doing anything.

If health is private, it means you only get proper medical treatment if you are rich, and if you are poor you are left to die.

[EnergyUnlimited]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('I_Like_Plants', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Rafa', '
')If police is private, it means that you only get protection if you are rich, and if you are poor you can get stolen without the police doing anything.

If health is private, it means you only get proper medical treatment if you are rich, and if you are poor you are left to die.

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pea-jay', ' ')Cuba, as one of the richest countries in Latin America the 1950s? Sure, I'd agree. With 1-2% of the population fabulously wealthy it raises the overall average for everyone else

[vision-master]

All the need to do is; import them wonderful cigars back into the USofA - thanx it the bull-headed US, that ain't gonna happen any time sooon...............

[Plantagenet]

How poor?

So poor a Cuban Taxi driver who has contact with a westerner who gives him hard currency is many times wealthier then a doctor.

"The taxi driver I travelled with during my stay in Havana made about $100 US from me in a week, which translates into about 2,500 pesos. According to the ECPAT Network's study, average Cuban wages are around only 250 to 400 pesos per month, which is worthless in the real economy"......

Cuban government jobs (i.e. essentially all jobs in socialist Cuba) pay WAGES of only 10-16 dollars a MONTH.

[EnergyUnlimited]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'H')ow poor?

So poor a Cuban Taxi driver who has contact with a westerner who gives him hard currency is many times wealthier then a doctor.

"The taxi driver I travelled with during my stay in Havana made about $100 US from me in a week, which translates into about 2,500 pesos. According to the ECPAT Network's study, average Cuban wages are around only 250 to 400 pesos per month, which is worthless in the real economy"......

Cuban government jobs (i.e. essentially all jobs in socialist Cuba) pay WAGES of only 10-16 dollars a MONTH.

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', 'A')ll the need to do is; import them wonderful cigars back into the USofA - thanx it the bull-headed US, that ain't gonna happen any time sooon...............

[I_Like_Plants]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', '
')I bet, all that is making prostitutes and pimps to be second wealthiest social class in Cuba, just next to Castro clan.

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('I_Like_Plants', 'I') don't doubt that Castro is wealthy.... He's not about the money, he's about the Revolution

[I_Like_Plants]

I don't call 3-hour speeches sybaritic.

Cubans have better health care than Americans. Better education too.

Human-ness = ability to buy things to you I know, but not everyone thinks that way.

[Pretorian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '"')The taxi driver I travelled with during my stay in Havana made about $100 US from me in a week, which translates into about 2,500 pesos. According to the ECPAT Network's study, average Cuban wages are around only 250 to 400 pesos per month, which is worthless in the real economy"......

Cuban government jobs (i.e. essentially all jobs in socialist Cuba) pay WAGES of only 10-16 dollars a MONTH.

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', 'B')ecouse if you want to talk about quality of life in countries with free healthcare , you'd probably should mention Switzeland and Norway, as USA didnt even sit anywhere near these countries qualityoflife-wise.