[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Mesuge', 'T')he efficiency of electric car (incl. energy production/distribution) is roughly 30% as opposed to 14% for various ICEs (bio, CTL, gas, CNG), FC, etc.. Certainly not 88% !
...

[PolestaR]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yesplease', 'x')rotaryguy's figure seems reasonable. They stated it was for just the EV itself, not any of the processes used to transfer that electricity to it. Just like only using the mileage of a car and not including the energy lost refining/transporting the oil. Battery->Controller->Hub Motor could likely be at ~88%...

[yesplease]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PolestaR', 'T')he point is to actually get that car on the road running it uses electricity to CHARGE the storage. Since no charging exists which is 100% efficient, NOT INCLUDING the charge into your "how much more power is needed calculations" is like coming out with 2+2=3 . Tanada or whoever posted those first calculations included the correct amount of power needed and then this guy comes along being ignorant and posting incorrect numbers.

[PolestaR]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yesplease', 'Y')es, but *he didn't state he used just that. For instance, lets say I want to figure how much electricity we'll need if we replace every private vehicle mile in the states. That's something like two trillion miles per year according to an earlier poster, at a likely average of ~300wh/mile. So, we need 300**(1/.88001)(1/.9)(1/.9)=420Wh/mile, or ~840 billion kWh per year. According to the CIA fact book, we already make ~4 trillion kWh per year, and according to xrotaryguy we make ~4.25 trillion kWh per year, so that would be an increase of roughly 20%. And for the sake of argument, lets say you contend that not everyone drives small pickups. In order to have a nice margin of error, lets assume the average vehicle required 1.5 times the energy a small pickup truck does, so reasonably speaking, we're around 30%.

[xrotaryguy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PolestaR', ' ')you need to include the efficiencies in charging the electrical storage on board the vehicle.

[xrotaryguy]

lol, it took me so long to reply that two more people replied while I was typing.

[PolestaR]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('xrotaryguy', 'T')his is just rude. It's also untrue. I failed to include charging efficiency which accounts for a small percentage of the energy losses of an electric car. My calculation is not that far off even with out the charging losses taken into account.

[cube]

to: xrotaryguy
(If you stick around here long enough you'll end up as a doom sayer just like all the old guard!)

efficiency = useful output energy / input energy --> agreed?

(warning using rough numbers)
An electrical power plant is 33% efficient (includes heat energy loss in transmission cables about 7%)
input == heat generated at the power plant (coal, nuclear, natural gas)
output == the electrical wall outlets in your house

An electric car is 80% efficient
input == plugging a cord into an EV car
output == the wheels turning against the road

The efficiency of an EV car measured from the power plant to the wheels of the car is 33% X 80% == 26%
What's there to get excited about?

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', '[')b]to: xrotaryguy
(If you stick around here long enough you'll end up as a doom sayer just like all the old guard!)

efficiency = useful output energy / input energy --> agreed?

(warning using rough numbers)
An electrical power plant is 33% efficient (includes heat energy loss in transmission cables about 7%)
input == heat generated at the power plant (coal, nuclear, natural gas)
output == the electrical wall outlets in your house

An electric car is 80% efficient
input == plugging a cord into an EV car
output == the wheels turning against the road

The efficiency of an EV car measured from the power plant to the wheels of the car is 33% X 80% == 26%
What's there to get excited about?

[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', '.')..
I am not attempting to prove anything here, just playing with rough numbers to demonstrate that Well to Wheel is a lot more complicated than your example implies.

[JRP3]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', '
')
To play Devil's advocate here an ICE is about converting petroleum into wheel movement. Petroleum through refinery =what 85% energy retained? Portion of that 85% converted to gasoline = 65%? ICE is about 30% efficient converting gasoline into wheel motion? So .85*.65=.5525*.3=.16575% true Well to Wheel efficiency.

[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JRP3', '.')..
Don't you need to move a decimal there? .16575 = 16.575%

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JRP3', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', '
')
To play Devil's advocate here an ICE is about converting petroleum into wheel movement. Petroleum through refinery =what 85% energy retained? Portion of that 85% converted to gasoline = 65%? ICE is about 30% efficient converting gasoline into wheel motion? So .85*.65=.5525*.3=.16575% true Well to Wheel efficiency.

[xrotaryguy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PolestaR', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('xrotaryguy', 'T')his is just rude. It's also untrue. I failed to include charging efficiency which accounts for a small percentage of the energy losses of an electric car. My calculation is not that far off even with out the charging losses taken into account.

[yesplease]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PolestaR', 'W')ell I didn't know it was assumed we were only talking about private miles being replaced here, but given that, a 25-30% increase in USA electrical production sounds good to me.

How much of the ~11MB/day oil is the private transport sector compared to commercial though? Changing 200 million cars to EVs and increasing 30% electricity capacity saves what exactly, 4-5MB/day?

[patrick_b]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Starvid', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Typically a nuclear power plant converts only 36% of its input energy to electricity. The rest of the energy is basically heat and is converted to a huge water vapor cloud that comes out of the cooling towers....

[Starvid]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('patrick_b', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Starvid', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Typically a nuclear power plant converts only 36% of its input energy to electricity. The rest of the energy is basically heat and is converted to a huge water vapor cloud that comes out of the cooling towers....

[patrick_b]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ElijahJones', 'S')o if we use the grid to power 100 million cars replacing our own fleet, and we make the changes in driving habits needed to fit into the electric box, what do we use to power the lights and A/C and everything else that is currently pushing the system to it's breaking point every summer.

We would have to
a) upgrade and expand the grid
b) add how many coal fired plants to meet the excess demand
c) charge a lot of money or give a lot of sudsidies to pay for the start-up
d) get Detroit to quietly fall of the face of the earth or retool their entire operations
e) make a brand new electric car affordable for every one who needs or wants to drive somewhere

Cradle to grave it sounds like this is one policy option we won't be implementing on a crash course.

[patrick_b]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Starvid', '
')Hehe, yes.
But there is actually one more use for uranium, coloring glass. I have two small bowls made of uranium glass. They are everything I have ever dreamed of as they are green, and when put in a dark room and exposed to UV light, they glow!
I am not kidding you!

[Armageddon]

In the central and eastern US ? We are getting 100 friggen degrees here in St. Louis for the next 10 days, atleast. That's as far as my 10 day forecast went.