[yesplease]

The only problem is that we don't accurately tax according to damage to road infrastructure/use in the first place. If this were the case, larger vehicles (aka semi's) would pay way, way more than they do currently. A bike compared to a car does nearly nothing, and pays nearly nothing. A car compared to a semi does nearly nothing, but ends up paying for the majority of damage the semi does...

Just another example of undustry manipulating gubberment to make as much mon3yz as possible.

[xrotaryguy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lawnchair', 'T')he United States produced 4055 TWh in the entirety of 2005, not per day. That is 11.65 TWh per day.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricit ... s_sum.html

Might I suggest HP calculators next time?

[JRP3]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PolestaR', '
')
That number (40 miles) will only get larger as time goes by, especially if driving a car, the actual cost of running it, is low.

[xrotaryguy]

One gallon of gasoline does have 35 KWh per gallon, but only about 22% of that energy is actually used to move the car. Compare this to the 88% efficiency of an electric car, and there is a problem with the calculation. Electric cars would demand 3.5 TWh from the grid rather than 14 TWh. That’s 1277.5 additional TWh per year. If we currently use 4255 TWh per year, then the US would have to increase electricity generating capacity by about 30% to meet the needs of a 100% electric vehicle fleet. (Correct me if my Ti83 is making mistakes for me again )

It is interesting that the report says that the grid can support the same number of electric cars (180 million) as there are gasoline powered cars (204 million depending on who you ask) on the road today.

[lawnchair]

My back of the envelope is as follows: 'residential' (not commercial) miles are now over 2 trillion miles per year in the US. Equivalent of 18.25 solo miles per man,woman,child per day.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/rtecs/nhts_ ... index.html

The Tesla Roadster may not be the paragon of electric efficiency. I'm sure less powerful models are salable, but I'm sure bigger ones (minivans, etc) will sell. Call it average? But it is pretty damned good. In test circuits it gets 5 miles per kilowatthour (at the plug). Think about it, that's impressive. 20 miles per load in an electric tumble dryer. A fair bit less in real start-and-stop traffic, but it's a round number.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Roadster

2e12 / 5 = 400e9 ... 400 TWh per year under pretty optimal calculations. Your estimate of 1277.5 seems pretty reasonable for real-world scenarios.

[Mesuge]

The efficiency of electric car (incl. energy production/distribution) is roughly 30% as opposed to 14% for various ICEs (bio, CTL, gas, CNG), FC, etc.. Certainly not 88% !



--
Now, to comment on yet another misconception, it has been on this forum mentioned and documented by various studies several times that just one loaded 18wheeler truck destroys the road as 10.000 passanger cars!

So, "fair share of roadtax for EVs" is a complete joke if we talk about light passanger cars or the "american trucks/pickups" upto say 1.5t of weight..

[emersonbiggins]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Mesuge', 'S')o, "fair share of roadtax for EVs" is a complete joke if we talk about light passanger cars or the "american trucks/pickups" upto say 1.5t of weight..

[JRP3]

It wouldn't be that hard to tax based on weight. On the other hand, roads full of potholes would slow traffic and make vehicles even more efficient, especially with regen suspension

[xrotaryguy]

The 88% that I stated was not a well to wheel efficiency rating nor did it need to be given the calculation. My calculation still stands.

A 30% increase in electric generation is attainable, but how about a 30% decrease in consumption? That sounds even better doesn't it?

[yesplease]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Mesuge', 'T')he efficiency of electric car (incl. energy production/distribution) is roughly 30% as opposed to 14% for various ICEs (bio, CTL, gas, CNG), FC, etc.. Certainly not 88% !

[xrotaryguy]

Thanks

[Mesuge]

You wrote exactly in one sentence "88% efficiency of electric car" which is a nonsense, pls. read again the EV conversion website and its tables on the page you attempted to link as your source..

I'll be the last to question the uber efficiency of electric traction components like motor/charger/inverter-controller though, which are obviously often way above 90%..

Sorry, there has been so many detailed posts on EVs that you must be a more precise in your statements, there are several practicing owners of EVs lurking around..

[xrotaryguy]

Yes, I stated that electric cars are 88% efficient. I think I have said it several times now. The site that I used as a source says that electric cars are 88% efficient.

Why are you disputing me? You just said that ev's with regenerative braking are better than 90% efficient. My 88% claim is conservative.

My calculation used the 88% efficiency of an ev and the low efficiency of ic powered cars (in the low 20's) to reveal how much electrical demand will increase. A 30% increase in electricity demand is big, but it is not impossible to meet.

[lawnchair]

As regards the taxation: Yes, semis do the great majority of the damage. Weathering alone does plenty. But, there wouldn't need to be hundreds of thousands of additional lane-miles being built without the growing fleet of commuter cars and SUVs. The pricing structure needs to include the non-zero cost of building autolebensraum not needed for trucking alone.

[PolestaR]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('xrotaryguy', 'T')he 88% that I stated was not a well to wheel efficiency rating nor did it need to be given the calculation. My calculation still stands.

A 30% increase in electric generation is attainable, but how about a 30% decrease in consumption? That sounds even better doesn't it?

[yesplease]

xrotaryguy's figure seems reasonable. They stated it was for just the EV itself, not any of the processes used to transfer that electricity to it. Just like only using the mileage of a car and not including the energy lost refining/transporting the oil. Battery->Controller->Hub Motor could likely be at ~88%...

[patrick_b]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Mesuge', 'T')he efficiency of electric car (incl. energy production/distribution) is roughly 30% as opposed to 14% for various ICEs (bio, CTL, gas, CNG), FC, etc.. Certainly not 88% !

[Starvid]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Typically a nuclear power plant converts only 36% of its input energy to electricity. The rest of the energy is basically heat and is converted to a huge water vapor cloud that comes out of the cooling towers....

[shortonoil]

I see one little snafu in your project to build 100 million EVs. If they cost an average of $20,000 apiece, then it will take 1.23 billion barrels of oil to build them. That will probably be harder to come by than the electricity to power them, unless you don’t mind starving to death while the nation goes electric. I think, a 100 million horses and a few more trains would be more practical.