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THE International Energy Agency (IEA) Thread pt 1 (merged) A

Discuss research and forecasts regarding hydrocarbon depletion.

Re: IEA admits to peak

Unread postby Jack » Sat 30 Jun 2007, 21:50:25

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JPL', 'T')his guy (chief economist for the IEA - whatever that means) is not being cornucopian right now.

I'm not referring to Fatih Birol, the gentleman quoted - no, I think he's making reasonable comments.
The people I'm lampooning are some of the cornucopians who keep posting drivel. Those people ignore the very facts brought out by Mr. Birol.
I'm sorry I didn't make that more clear.
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Re: IEA admits to peak

Unread postby Zardoz » Sun 01 Jul 2007, 10:03:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', 'I')'m sorry I didn't make that more clear.

You did.

This is really something. An IEA honcho coming right out and laying it on the table for all to see. Even more incredible: He's an economist!

Once again, we Peak Oil.com forum rats are having our worst-case scenarios confirmed as being accurate forecasts of the future. Like we've said so many times before, though, there will be no satisfaction in being proven correct. We'll all be losers in the end. We'll all bitterly regret being so very right.
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Re: IEA admits to peak?

Unread postby eastbay » Sun 01 Jul 2007, 11:11:54

Ok.... so with this 'new' information... uh, like, when do we sell???
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Re: IEA admits to peak?

Unread postby Aaron » Sun 01 Jul 2007, 11:32:09

This guy join ASPO or what?
"...for the next five to ten years, oil production outside of OPEC will reach a maximum before starting to decline, for lack of sufficient reserves."
"But the economy accepted almost without difficulty this increase in the price per barrel?

You are right, the rich economy was OK. But the world does not stop with the rich countries. Africa is in great difficulty. They haven't got the credit to buy oil. For future generations, there are also serious issues. The energy costs and the in-debitedness in the United States, for example. But the United States and the European Union also tend to use oil much more efficiently, and it's the way they're doing it, is to reduce the growth in demand. Thus the consumer countries have reacted well. " He fails to mention it's not just Africa... the poor everywhere are already feeling the pinch of higher oil prices.

In terms of overall usefulness, fuel @ $10/gallon is an incredible bargain, compared with any other commodity. In fact, there is almost no price-point at which transport fuel fails to be valuable.

But the concentration of wealth in the hands of fewer people, means the effects of rising energy costs hit the most people possible. The 1% of very wealthy folks are isolated from higher energy costs, while 99% will suffer badly.

Calgon take me away!
The problem is, of course, that not only is economics bankrupt, but it has always been nothing more than politics in disguise... economics is a form of brain damage.

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Re: IEA admits to peak?

Unread postby Bioman » Sun 01 Jul 2007, 12:31:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', '
')He fails to mention it's not just Africa... the poor everywhere are already feeling the pinch of higher oil prices.


Exactly. That's why African countries have created a Green OPEC, to produce biofuels. Currently, several African countries spend two times more on oil imports than on health care. Can you imagine?

Biofuels can finally break this disastrous dependence. Thank God.
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Re: IEA admits to peak?

Unread postby dinopello » Sun 01 Jul 2007, 12:46:28

yea, thank god !

Where's that buzzard in the corn field with the starving baby picture when you need it ?
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Re: IEA admits to peak

Unread postby JPL » Sun 01 Jul 2007, 13:00:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Judgie', 'Y')ES PLEASE

OK...
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '.')... continued ....
Do the Chinese leaders have the will and the capacity to slow down their demand for oil?
This will exists. To set up a radical energy policy is easier in China, than in a country with more liberal political regime. On another side, the Chinese wish to live a Western life style. The Chinaman says to himself: "if I have the money, why not buy a car?"
I think that the Chinese government will only be able to slow down the pace of growth: there will be always a very strong growth in demand for oil, no matter where it comes from. The oil industry must take account of this fact and take the necessary actions.

Can we figure out what the pace of growth is going to be?
It is largely un-known: What is the potential for Chinese growth over the next 10 years - 6 percent / yr, 7 percent,10 percent? This difference of a few percentage points has huge implications for the world.

Biofuels - do they not they define part of the response to this challenge?
Once again, it is better to look at the figures, rather than listen to rhetoric. Many governments are encourageing the use of biofuels, notably in Europe, Japan and the United States. Certain of the policies are not founded on solid economics: biofuels remain very expensive to produce. But even if these issues are absent, we think the portion of world fuel coming from biofuels will only be 7 percent, by the year 2030.
To reach this 7 percent, we would need an agricultural area equivalent to the surface area of Australia, Korea, Japan and New Zealand...

This being on the same land used for conventional agriculture - there is a risk of an impact on the price of food.
Yes, that is already the case, and it is not good. And also there are enviromental difficulties: more and more studies prove that biofuels do not automatically reduce greenhouse emissions, compared with oil. This is also a great problem. So for these reasons - ecomomic and enviomental - 7 percent biofuels production is a very, very optomistic figure. Biofuels will never replace oil from OPEC, as some people hope. Their contribution will remain minimal.

What about the new developments in Africa?
Africa is not going to revolutionise things: A few hundred thousand barrels more from West Africa. It will not change the fundamentals.

So, where will the new production come from?
The only countries that can really change the course of the game are Saudi Arabia and Iraq. They can bring substantial volumes of extra crude to the market, if they wish to. But under what circumstances? There is also an enormous question mark. It is unknown what the reserve figures are.

Are they any nasty surprises waiting around the corner?
I believe the Saudi government talks about 230 billion barrels of reserves. I have no official reason to disbelieve those numbers. However, Saudi Arabia, the same as other producers and international firms, need to be more transparent as to how they present these figures. Because oil is so critical to all of us, it is our right to know, how much oil there is left.


I will finish here for the moment as I have to go and sort the kids out. Any Francophones want to pick up the rest of it - be my guest! Else I will be back tomorrow to get the rest done.
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Re: IEA admits to peak?

Unread postby SevenTen » Sun 01 Jul 2007, 13:50:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bioman', 'B')iofuels can finally break this disastrous dependence.

Yes, they certainly can, can't they? It's a good thing we picked the hardest-utilized fuel sources on the planet first, and left the low-hanging fruit for last, so we could finally break the bonds of matter conservation and thermodynamics and sail off into an era of plenty.

Biofuels, and fusion, and ZPE, and then we'll be set. And I forgot dilithium crystals, fairy dust, and Tinkerbell's glow, the development of which will be funded with leprechaun gold.

:)
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Re: IEA admits to peak?

Unread postby Aaron » Sun 01 Jul 2007, 13:54:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bioman', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', 'H')e fails to mention it's not just Africa... the poor everywhere are already feeling the pinch of higher oil prices.
Exactly. That's why African countries have created a Green OPEC, to produce biofuels. Currently, several African countries spend two times more on oil imports than on health care. Can you imagine? Biofuels can finally break this disastrous dependence. Thank God.

Just login as lorenzo, you bio-fuel pumping troll, you. You're not banned.
The problem is, of course, that not only is economics bankrupt, but it has always been nothing more than politics in disguise... economics is a form of brain damage.

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Re: IEA admits to peak?

Unread postby highlander » Sun 01 Jul 2007, 14:19:12

You are not playnig fair Aaron ;-)

Isn't it kind of like going from meth to heroin?

And a summer like they had last year in Australia, coupled with one like we are having in the Midwest. Wheat goes from 3.xx a bushel to 6.xx a bushel. Corn up 25%

But we do have GMO crops just waiting to be approved. Oh wait, they ran out of seed this spring, scratch that.

OK we wil just conserve. This is where Monte usually weighs in.

OK, forget everyone else and make sure you have fuel for yourself, somehow.

Here is where Highlander can get banned :-0

Got Biodiesel?
This is where everybody puts profound words written by another...or not so profound words written by themselves
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Re: IEA admits to peak?

Unread postby Bioman » Sun 01 Jul 2007, 15:26:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bioman', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', '
')He fails to mention it's not just Africa... the poor everywhere are already feeling the pinch of higher oil prices.


Exactly. That's why African countries have created a Green OPEC, to produce biofuels. Currently, several African countries spend two times more on oil imports than on health care. Can you imagine?

Biofuels can finally break this disastrous dependence. Thank God.


Just login as lorenzo, you bio-fuel pumping troll, you.

You're not banned.


Thanks. I was banned though. But I'm over it now.

If you don't mind I'll keep logging in as Bioman. Lorenzo is off investing in the South somewhere.
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Re: IEA admits to peak?

Unread postby Bioman » Sun 01 Jul 2007, 15:29:20

Seriously, though, the same Fatih Birol:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')March 06, 2007
IEA chief economist: EU, US should scrap tariffs and subsidies, import biofuels from the South
President Bush visits Brazil this week and is expected to hear President Lula lobbying him to end American ethanol tariffs. Brazil's push is now receiving the support from an unlikely quarter - the authoritative International Energy Agency (IEA), the independent energy adviser to 26 of the most industrialized nations.

The IEA understands its case: it has been studying all aspects of biofuels and bioenergy in-depth for years now, with dedicated scientific Task Forces (see IEA Bioenergy), which unite top experts in the field. Bioenergy Task 40 - which analyses the potential for sustainable international trade in biofuels - has made the case very clearly: a large amount of green fuels can be produced in a sustainable manner, without threatening the food security of people and without threatening ecosystems and biodiversity, in the Global South and exported efficiently to world markets (earlier post). Other Bioenergy Task forces come to the same conclusion. Europe and America do not have this capacity.

Earlier we reported on how the IEA's very chief, Claude Mandil, knowing the science, called on Europe and the United States to end their trade distorting subsidies for biofuels that can not compete in the market. He also urged the large consumers to import green fuels from the developing world instead (earlier post).

Now the IEA's Chief Economist, Fatih Birol, is joining this position: biofuels made in the EU and the US, using food grains, make no economic sense. They are inefficient and cannot compete against biofuels made in the South, where good agro-ecological conditions and suitable crops result in efficient fuels. Moreover, inefficient biofuels made in the US and the EU do not really contribute to reducing greenhouse gases, whereas those made in the developing world do.

For all these reasons, Birol says "the U.S. and Europe should scrap import duties on developing countries and in the longer term reconsider all subsidies."


Birol is rather optimistic about biofuels.


And his boss, Claude Mandil:


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')ctober 16, 2006
IEA chief: Europe and United States should import ethanol from developing world
Very important news. Finally someone with some authority is saying it: instead of producting it themselves and subsidizing it like mad, the United States and the European Union should import ethanol and biofuels from the developing world. Making it themselves is not good for the environment, nor for the economy as a whole, and even less for individual consumers. These are the words of Claude Mandil, chief of the International Energy Agency.

In La Tribune, Claude Mandil explains [*french] that ethanol is currently made from three main feedstocks: corn in the United States and Europe, sugar beet in Europe and sugar cane in the developing world, most notably in Brazil and India.

"The first two methods are the worst imaginable", says the chief executive of the IEA, because they are only commercially viable with permanent subsidies and trade barriers, and their production requires a large amount of fossil fuel inputs, which is not the case for sugar cane and other tropical crops.

According to Claude Mandil, "ethanol produced in Brazil, even when it is imported by Europe [taking into account the energy needed to transport the fuel across the Atlantic] makes sense. If the United States and Europe are serious about biofuels, they must turn to the South for their supplies". The South has the land available, the climate and the crops. Mandil does not deny that careful planning must be undertaken to limit environmental damage, though.

Claude Mandil warns that the United States and Europe do not see the larger picture. They are confusing agricultural policies and energy policies, mixing them up in a cocktail that "has no advantages", Mandil concludes. Implicitly, he is referring to both President Bush and President Chirac's recent announcements that they are going to support biofuel farming in the US and the EU.
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Re: IEA admits to peak?

Unread postby Zardoz » Sun 01 Jul 2007, 15:39:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '"')...ethanol produced in Brazil, even when it is imported by Europe [taking into account the energy needed to transport the fuel across the Atlantic] makes sense."

Yeah, just like cotton and tobacco being imported into Europe from America made sense back in the old southern plantation days:

Brazil's ethanol slaves

Goods produced by de facto slave labor are always a good buy, aren't they?
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Re: IEA admits to peak?

Unread postby Bioman » Sun 01 Jul 2007, 16:22:25

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zardoz', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '"')...ethanol produced in Brazil, even when it is imported by Europe [taking into account the energy needed to transport the fuel across the Atlantic] makes sense."

Yeah, just like cotton and tobacco being imported into Europe from America made sense back in the old southern plantation days:

Brazil's ethanol slaves

Goods produced by de facto slave labor are always a good buy, aren't they?


Sure, there are lots of problems with biofuels, nobody denies this. But maybe we can keep this discussion for another thread?

The labor situation in Brazil's biofuel sector is quite complex. It requires a nuanced debate.

Did you know the sugarcane cutters are the staunchest advocates of the expansion of the sector?

Also, have you ever thought why the leftist administration of Lula the socialist, is such a big advocate of biofuels, and why it is even transferring its technologies to Angola, Mozambique and other African countries?

Strange, isn't it, to see socialists pushing slavery everywhere...

We can explore these facts - stunning to most people from the West with their dull cliches - in a separate thread, perhaps.
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Re: IEA admits to peak?

Unread postby cube » Sun 01 Jul 2007, 18:37:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', '.')..
Just login as lorenzo, you bio-fuel pumping troll, you.

You're not banned.
yeah what ever happened to Lorenzo? I miss that picture with the lady and avocado!
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Re: IEA admits to peak?

Unread postby JPL » Sun 01 Jul 2007, 19:10:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bioman', '
')Biofuels can finally break this disastrous dependence. Thank God.


Got-damnit bioman - I finally got the wife & kids to bed and was going to have a go at the rest of the translation & then you turn up here.

Look. The IEA's own chief economist has just blown bio-fuels out of the water. That's one of the key points of this thread. Rather than just come up with the same "we're all saved" mantra I think you should do the same as this guy has done and learn some math.

Yes, I agree, biofuels are a valuable resource, particularly for the third world. Some of the best food I have ever eaten has been cooked over a fire made from cow-dung (sun-dried, after being made into small, flat cakes, gives a very INTERESTING but not un-welcome smell to the whole thing).

But I also want to point out that the worlds' biofuels production is already at its (sustainable) max. Laying waste to the world's remaining tropical regions will only prove one thing - that 'we' are prepared to destroy all our tomorrows for the sake of a few more good times today.

In other words, get out of my thread. I am very tired of this arguement (oooh, let's find even MORE ingenious ways to rape the planet - ever faster) and it's going to get nowhere.

JP

EDIT: Stuff removed 'cos the guy probably didn't deserve THAT (grin)
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Re: IEA admits to peak?

Unread postby Aaron » Mon 02 Jul 2007, 07:54:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', '.')..
Just login as lorenzo, you bio-fuel pumping troll, you.

You're not banned.
yeah what ever happened to Lorenzo? I miss that picture with the lady and avocado!


BioMan = Lorenzo

Same guy pumping his lame biofuel company.

yawn...
The problem is, of course, that not only is economics bankrupt, but it has always been nothing more than politics in disguise... economics is a form of brain damage.

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Re: IEA admits to peak?

Unread postby peripato » Mon 02 Jul 2007, 09:14:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]So, where will the new production come from?

The only countries that can really change the course of the game are Saudi Arabia and Iraq. They can bring substantial volumes of extra crude to the market, if they wish to. But under what circumstances? There is also an enormous question mark. It is unknown what the reserve figures are.

Are they any nasty surprises waiting around the corner?

I believe the Saudi government talks about 230 billion barrels of reserves. I have no official reason to disbelieve those numbers. However, Saudi Arabia, the same as other producers and international firms, need to be more transparent as to how they present these figures. Because oil is so critical to all of us, it is our right to know, how much oil there is left.

So there you have it. If Saudi and OPEC reserve figures are correct, or Iraq is floating above some previously undiscovered lake of oil, then we have less than 10 years, otherwise, prepare to kiss your lifestyle goodbye even sooner. Either way 10 years makes little difference, so little difference in the lifespan of a nation or a civilization.
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Re: IEA admits to peak?

Unread postby shortonoil » Mon 02 Jul 2007, 10:58:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')re they any nasty surprises waiting around the corner?

I believe the Saudi government talks about 230 billion barrels of reserves. I have no official reason to disbelieve those numbers.


In 1999, the Saudis claimed that they had 270 bb of reserves, and 2/3’rd of that was light sweet crude; they claimed fifty years of production of high quality product. Now they are spending $10 billion to build a refinery to handle dirty, heavy oil, and complaining that no one wants to buy their discounted, vanadium laced road tar.

Obviously, that is not an official reason to disbelieve those numbers; not official, if official refers to non-rational, credulous and absurd!
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