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Values in a post-PO society

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.
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Re: Values in a post-PO society

Unread postby Ludi » Tue 10 Apr 2007, 13:51:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Fredrik', 'C')ouldn't that be, at least in part, because honor/shame codes are more implicit but stronger in small primitive communities? The immediate response to unaccepted behavior would be social stigmatization and, after further violations, exclusion from the group. So even without an explicit power structure, the pressure not to deviate from standard behavior is still there in small groups. In fact, small communities usually have more rigid social rules and taboos.

Not really, or rather, to a certain extent. It's hard to generalise such diverse cultures. But many tribal cultures have been very tolerant of odd behavior, as long as it was not "cheater" behavior. Cheater behvior violates the values of the tribe. Many tribal societies are/have been quite free in their acceptance of what we would consider "extramarital affairs" because having sex with a mate may not be the primary function of pairbonding. In some societies, it's just not relevant who the father of a child is, but all fathers or potential fathers are expected to help care for the children. To not care for children is seen as "cheater" behavior, and not tolerated. In some societies, stealing belongings is tolerated and not seen as "cheater" behavior because belongings are not really seen as personal. The trickster or thief in the tribe function is to see that nobody becomes too attached to their belongings. But acting as the trickster or thief might not be tolerated in just any person, just as disruptive behavior might not be tolerated in a person who is not a trickster or thief character (their role in the tribe). So, if we look at various cultures, we can see a wide range of acceptance of various behavior we would think of as "wrong" but, in the context of the tribe and tribal roles, it is not wrong, not cheater. True cheater behavior is clearly delineated in a tribe and all tribes have effective means of dealing with cheating. This doesn't include police or prisons. In spite of all our police and prisons, we have rampant cheater behavior in our culture, because we don't in most cases live in mutually supportive roles as people in tribal societies do. In a sense, we're all forced to be cheaters, to try to get ahead over the other guy, which is just not done in tribal societies (except in certain competitions or other prescribed circumstances), because of mutual dependence.
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Re: Values in a post-PO society

Unread postby Fredrik » Wed 11 Apr 2007, 04:17:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Iaato', 'I') hesitated to jump into this thread, in fact, after doing a content analysis of the numbers of competitive behaviors displayed by the denizens of the thread. :P

Interesting... Could you post any results? :roll:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Iaato', 'C')ertainly relocalization will produce diverse local cultures that reflect their environments

...and the social, cultural and religious memes of their inhabitants.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Iaato', 'I') have a vision of semi-migratory alaskans who hunker down next to the fire in the winter and skijor to work, and spend the summer down on the Kenai in fish camps, just like the Athabaskans used to do.

Cyclic migration, based on the seasonal food source. Sounds just like the lifestyle of my ancient Finno-Ugric ancestors. But living off what nature has to offer sets pretty rigid limits to population size. How about agriculture, couldn't that work out in Alaska after it's warmed up some degrees? If I understand correctly, warming will be faster on norhtern latitudes.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Iaato', 'I')ndividuals who reinforce the produtive operation of local systems will in turn be reinforced. Eventually, those who don't contribute to the organization of the system will be extinguished.

Isn't that essentially what bshirt and I meant? Only that "extincton from the system" might not happen voluntarily, but it may call for intervention by an authority to enforce it.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Iaato', 'I')'d like to challenge Fredrik and about 4/5 of the rest of this forum to call doomerism for what it actually is. Grieving. The term doomerism implies a permanent state of sulk from which we don't have to emerge. I could get quite comfy sitting here with this warm laptop on my lap feeling gloomy. Being a doomer gives one that permission. It's certainly the path of least resistance once one has come to terms with peak oil. Grieving implies doing the work of loss on a temporary situational basis. Get through it, face the losses, and get on with it. There's a lot of work to do, and we are way behind. I agree with gg3.

I never felt the term "doomerism" necessarily means surrendering to a terminal "doom" for humanity. If it does, I don't subscribe to doomerism as defined. I do agree that we can still avoid the worst possible outcome if we work hard enough. But it is essential that we have a realistic picture of what is to come in the near future, and that picture is very dark indeed.

For starters, think about food production for 6+ billion people with a continually diminishing supply of fuel, fertilizer and pesticides... plus losses of arable land because of GW and water depletion...
Last edited by Fredrik on Wed 11 Apr 2007, 08:37:29, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Values in a post-PO society

Unread postby TheDude » Wed 11 Apr 2007, 07:06:27

Wait until "Doomerism" goes mainstream. If you thought it was an infectious meme in 2007, you ain't seen nothin' yet.
We've seen plenty of societies collapse lately, you'd learn plenty by reading about the collapse of the Argentine economy for instance. Here are some first-hand accounts of it.
Question is, did outside economic impetus cushion the blow for Argentina? Naturally, I'd guess. What would you get without it? Perhaps you'd do better to read about Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge.
I don't think comparing the future US to Rome's decline, or early Renaissance Europe, will give an exact analogue to what could happen here, either, and definitely wouldn't go too far with WD1, either. I think the disconnect between our current living standards and what it would take to get by without all these creature comforts is very large. We're always bringing up the subject of what people could do without stores full of goods. Do you know anyone who can make shoes? Mill grain? Tan leather? Without oil/machinery/trucks/stores, what are people going to do for these staples of living? Will China send relief like they do on TV? Or will they have better things to do, problems of their own?
I think conditions for people could get to the level you see at the end of the movie Threads, where the adults are so shell-shocked after 10 years of scrabbling in the dirt and eating rats they've almost ceased to speak, and their children are gabbling away in some barbaric cant. The shoes question is resolved, too - plastic bags held on with twine.
In a situation like that I don't think people will have any extra energy left to argue about ethics/morals much. The onset of decline will definitely lead to a lot of groups preparing for hard times, and plenty of them will espouse very intolerant values of course. I'd think they would outnumber more tolerant congregations as well, just a hunch. But in an extreme situation like I'm describing people would also be cut off from contact from other groups farther away than maybe 30 miles - the distance a person on horseback could travel and return within a day. So ethics/morals may be a local phenomenon for a while. Who knows what will prevail over time.
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Re: Values in a post-PO society

Unread postby Fredrik » Wed 11 Apr 2007, 08:34:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'S')o, if we look at various cultures, we can see a wide range of acceptance of various behavior we would think of as "wrong" but, in the context of the tribe and tribal roles, it is not wrong, not cheater.

Yes, ethical standards vary somewhat from culture to culture. But my point was that whatever behavior is collectively deemed "wrong" or "deviant from the norm" will probably find much less tolerance in the small, survival-centered societies of the post-collapse era, than in our present pluralistic society powered by cheap energy.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'T')rue cheater behavior is clearly delineated in a tribe and all tribes have effective means of dealing with cheating. This doesn't include police or prisons.

I'm just interested... are those effective means more humane than locking someone up for a period of time? I've read that in many "primitive" cultures a person who has violated rules is stigmatized and pushed out of the social group (as a "witch", for example).
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TheDude', 'I') think the disconnect between our current living standards and what it would take to get by without all these creature comforts is very large. We're always bringing up the subject of what people could do without stores full of goods. Do you know anyone who can make shoes? Mill grain? Tan leather? Without oil/machinery/trucks/stores, what are people going to do for these staples of living? Will China send relief like they do on TV? Or will they have better things to do, problems of their own?

Exactly.
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"A fundamental, devastating error is to set up a political system based on [individual] desires." -Pentti Linkola
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Re: Values in a post-PO society

Unread postby Iaato » Thu 12 Apr 2007, 02:33:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Fredrik', ' ')Cyclic migration, based on the seasonal food source. Sounds just like the lifestyle of my ancient Finno-Ugric ancestors. But living off what nature has to offer sets pretty rigid limits to population size. How about agriculture, couldn't that work out in Alaska after it's warmed up some degrees? If I understand correctly, warming will be faster on norhtern latitudes.

Yes, traditionally Alaska's resources were limited enough to require nomadic migration patterns for survival. Especially at the higher latitudes where there were even less resources. Follow the reindeer or the salmon streams in the summer, and work furiously to develop storages (salmon, berries, whale, whatever) to carry the group through the winter. It is interesting to compare the relatively high energy native cultures of southeast alaska (Klinkit, Haida) with those of the Inuit in the far north whose resources were very limited. The Inuit were nomadic, and had cultural practices such as "relinquishment" where children were readily shared through fluid adoptions within the group. The southeastern natives had rich traditions of dance and artwork such as totems, and less need to migrate and thus, a more stable society with larger communities. This example of contrasting relative resource availability suggests to me that the resource availability will have a great impact on the values adopted by the local community.

We actually have a fair amount of agriculture up here now, and I'm counting on more--salmon can get old after a while. Apparently midwesterns of scandinavian descent were recruited in a big way around WD1 to trial farming in AK. It was successful.
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The last 5 summers on the whole have been much warmer up here, with bumper apple crops, for example, as a fairly new phenomenon. Yes, I've done the math on the difference between Anchorage's current population and what was historically supported by the environment. But we also have lots of possibilities for net-positive alternatives such as geothermal and wind, in addition to a relatively rich stash of oil/gas/coal residuals.

Interesting link, Dude, on the description of the Argentinean collapse. Thanks. I'm still trying to figure out what we're going to do in Anchorage with all the big box stores that have sprung up in the last decade. I'll sure miss Costco. Maybe barter shops as described in your link can live in those big warehouses. It's going to be interesting to see what happens to the bush communities when avgas gets unreasonable.
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Re: Values in a post-PO society

Unread postby Newsseeker » Fri 20 Apr 2007, 10:16:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'W')e learn from biology that diversity in life systems leads to greater chance of survival. Cultural diversity - tolerance - could be seen as a survival mechanism in a rapidly changing world.

Until you have different groups who still maintain their individual identities competing over limited resources. Then you have conflict.
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Re: Values in a post-PO society

Unread postby Ferretlover » Sun 17 Jun 2007, 12:24:15

We will see an upswing in family and religious values.

But what kind of family values? That of Saudi princes? that of poor white trash?
And, as for religion-hasn't religion caused a great many of the world's problems? the inquisition, the crusades, illusions of great mansions in the sky, of vast harems of virgins as a reward for antisocial behaviors, etc?
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Re: Values in a post-PO society

Unread postby Ferretlover » Wed 20 Jun 2007, 20:04:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bshirt', 'I') can't imagine how the current "welfare check in every mailbox" policy in the US being sunk wouldn't have drastic changes in values nationwide.

Did you see on the news where the NY school systrm is setting up a program to PAY students?
It's a cash course Mike ready to give kids greenbacks, not gold stars, for good test scores By JUAN GONZALEZ NY DAILY NEWS Staff writer--Mayor Bloomberg is about to start paying public school students for better test scores. Hundreds of principals have been informed during the past few weeks that City Hall is getting ready to unveil a cash "incentive" plan for thousands of low-income students who will take new assessment tests the city plans to roll out in September. Under the unusual program, pupils in as many as 400 autonomous public schools that are part of Chancellor Joel Klein's Empowerment Schools program will be rewarded with money for results. Fourthgraders would get $25 and seventh-graders would get $50 for nailing a perfect score on a new battery of assessment tests from CTB/McGraw-Hill. The new assessments, announced by the Department of Education last week, will be administered a whopping five times a year to all city students from the third to the eighth grades. This will be in addition to the existing high-stakes New York state English language and math tests, though the McGraw-Hill tests are not meant to determine student placement, officials say. Under the cash incentive plan, all participating students will receive smaller amounts of money just to take the McGraw-Hill tests, according to internal Department of Education memos obtained by the Daily News. "Every kid gets an incentive just for taking each assessment; $5 for fourth graders and $10 for seventh graders" says one e-mail sent this week to principals by Roland Fryer, the Harvard consultant Klein has hired to oversee the program. "For each correct answer, students earn an additional reward," Fryer's note explains. ... The proposed incentive plan, which also includes a $5,000 cash "gift" to every school that uses the McGraw-Hill tests, is meant to woo parents and principals from the empowerment schools. "It's pretty horrendous that they want to pay children to get a perfect score on a test," said Jane Hirschmann, who heads Time Out from Testing, an advocacy group that opposes the growing national trend toward more and more testing. "They could use this money to bring more resources into the schools," Hirschmann said. "It really makes clear what education under Klein has become in this city." ...Pay students to learn
Last edited by Ferretlover on Thu 29 May 2008, 00:16:18, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Values in a post-PO society

Unread postby in_nowhere » Thu 21 Jun 2007, 01:08:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ut how will we deal with those who don't want to work, but still eat the food we have grown with great effort?

Well right now we hand them a check and not many people seem to care too much since they can't see it happening. But what happens when someone who is too lazy to work demands their welfare in the form of 4 melons, or a goat. I think people will react more violently to that.

For me I think you will be able to live in the cities until the welfare programs are dropped because it is too expensive. After that I think it will get pretty desperate there.
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