[threadbear]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('killJOY', 'A') host of my friends died of AIDS, before the onset of AZT and anti-viral meds.

Now, a host of my friends are alive, and healthy, after their AIDS diagnoses, due to the maintenance programs recommended by informed AIDS specialists.

This thread this a disgrace.

http://snopes.com/medical/disease/aids.asp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV_and_AI ... onceptions

[Pops]

Man, you guys will do anything to avoid addressing the topic at hand.

Reference the name of this board if you are confused as to the topic.

My 20 year class reunion (class of ’75) was several folks lighter due to AIDS.

But hey; digress, change the subject or do the Ostrich Dance at will…

I guess we will keep loose threads like this alive.

[Tyler_JC]

So....we're back to AIDS=Gay Cancer hypothesis?:?

This video is absurd.

[WatchfulEye]

It's terribly sad watching that video. It's, for the most part, nonsense, and much of the rest is hyperbole and poor interpretation of the medical and scientific observations.

It should also be pointed out that this is an old video, which was itself based on scientific opinions that were already outdated and disproved at the time it was compiled.

It's difficult to know where to start in terms of picking it apart, but the evidence for the orthodox model of AIDS and HIV is absolutely overwhelming. The lifecycle of the virus has been largely unravelled, there are similar viruses that have been identified in other species, there are other viruses that have a long 'latent' period. The biochemistry of the virus is well understood and advanced molecular drugs have been developed to target specifically the virus molecular machinery.

There is no question that HIV causes AIDS. A characteristic set of symptoms and other infections (due to the weakened immune system) was described before the introduction of AZT and other drugs. HIV affects the immune system in a specific way, preferentially attacking CD4 cells. It is infections that depend on CD4 cells that feature severely in AIDS, whereas other infections (like the common cold) are no worse in AIDS sufferers than in healthy individuals. This same pattern of diseases (TB, PCP, kaposi's sarcoma, etc.) has been seen in the 80s in the US, and is seen in areas of Africa where anti-HIV drugs are not available. It is the same pattern of diseases that are seen in people with AIDS on anti-HIV drugs.

Again, the biolgical reason why those particular infections take over is well understood, and is due to CD4 cells. Someone who gets infections with a low CD4 count and starts anti-HIV drugs will get their count boosted and the infections will stop coming. There's absolutely no doubt about this.

Modern methods of monitoring HIV/AIDS involve actually measuring the number of HIV viruses in the blood. If the virus count is rising, it is promptly followed by a fall in the CD4 count, and onset of infections. Any doctor with experience of treating HIV/AIDS will see this from time to time - it's a 'textbook' scenario, like the person coming to the ER with central heavy chest pain going into their left arm (heart attack).

HIV is a very fragile virus, genetic code is incredibly easily damaged and its DNA replication mechanism is extremely sloppy. It accumulates mutations at a staggering rate which gives it the power to evolve almost at warp speed. Strains found in different groups of sufferers often have properties that match the behaviour of those groups. E.g. in promiscuous gay men or prostitutes, the strains tend to be highly virulent - they have a short latent time, and reproduce quickly, producing huge quantities of virus in the blood and bodily fluids, and they kill quickly. Where promiscuity or transfer is less marked (e.g. rural africa), the strains tend to be less aggressive, so as to allow the host more time with which to spread the virus as far as possible. It is this same ability to mutate that has kept HIV ahead of the pack in terms of anti-HIV treatment. Each person has billions of viruses, many millions of which may have some sort of mutation - it's only a matter of time and numbers before one mutates so that it becomes resistant to AZT, or whatever.

The modern treatment approach works against this - by using 4 different drugs that work in different ways simultaneously. This treatment is highly effective, and cases of resistance are exceedingly rare - and when they do occur are usually the result of medical incompetance (not prescribing the correct 4 drugs together), the patient not able to due to side effects (or who otherwise doesn't comply) to take the treatment, or someone unforutnate enough to have been infected by someone from one of the above groups. While it's plausible that a virus might just by sheer chance gain a mutation that makes it resistant to AZT - it's totally implausible that it will simultaneously develop 4 mutations that each target a different drug.

To call AIDS a hoax is an insult to all those who suffer with it, all those doctors who treat these people and the scientists who have spent their working lives trying to unravel the complexity of this virus and of the immune system that it attacks.

[threadbear]

So Dr. Kary Mullis, of polymerase chain reaction fame, and Nobel Laureate;what's his problem? Do you know something he doesn't?



"Mullis then went on to echo one of Duesberg's most controversial claims. "Human beings are full of retroviruses," he said, "We don't know if it is hundreds or thousands or hundreds of thousands. We've only recently started to look for them. But they've never killed anybody before. People have always survived retroviruses."

Mullis challenged the popular wisdom that the disease-causing mechanisms of HIV are simply too "mysterious" to comprehend. "The mystery of that damn virus," he said at the time, "has been generated by the $2 billion a year they spend on it. You take any other virus, and you spend $2 billion, and you can make up some great mysteries about it too."

http://www.virusmyth.com/aids/data/cfmullis.htm

[WatchfulEye]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'S')o Dr. Kary Mullis, of polymerase chain reaction fame, and Nobel Laureate;what's his problem? Do you know something he doesn't?

[Tyler_JC]

Thank you for sealing the case for us, watchfuleye.

Now let's see if the conspiracy theory lobby on this site takes note.

Oh, and welcome to www.peakoil.com.

[threadbear]

Thanks Watchful Eye. I wonder what Mullis thinks now?

[steam_cannon]

WatchfulEye, well said and welcome aboard!

[mmasters]

Thanks for the arguements guys. After spending a good amount of time researching this today I have to admit on being mislead regarding the HIV AIDS connection without evaluating enough information. Oh well, live and learn. OTOH I still think AZT is bad stuff and HIV/KS was likely deliberately introduced into the gay population as a test group.

[Tyler_JC]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mmasters', 'T')hanks for the arguements guys. After spending a good amount of time researching this today I have to admit on being mislead regarding the HIV AIDS connection without evaluating enough information. Oh well, live and learn. OTOH I still think AZT is bad stuff and HIV/KS was likely deliberately introduced into the gay population as a test group.

[jupiters_release]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mmasters', 'T')hanks for the arguements guys. After spending a good amount of time researching this today I have to admit on being mislead regarding the HIV AIDS connection without evaluating enough information. Oh well, live and learn. OTOH I still think AZT is bad stuff and HIV/KS was likely deliberately introduced into the gay population as a test group.

[dukey]

if HIV did cause aids
it would have spread like any other infectous disease rather than staying in the original risk groups (ie gays)
Prostitutes would have spread it like crazy .. One of my friends got something like gonorrhea in his mouth from going down on a Thai prostitute,, they dont use protection. Why don't we ever hear about aids from these places?

and 'apparantly' it can take a long time for 'aids' to develop when you get HIV. So if this was really true, millions and millions of people would have caught HIV and not known, then we would have had a huge outbreak in both males and females ! (Lots of these gay men are also bisexual). This just hasn't happened.

And how is what people call AIDs in africa any different to people just having poor immune systems due to lack of nutritiun, clean water etc, then just dying of any old disease. Why is AIDs in africa 50:50 male female. When in the western world it's strictly gay men. How can that possibly be the same disease ? Can you name 1 .. other disease like that. Just one ...

How can we possibly help these people in Africa with drugs ? when the reason they are probably in such a poor state is the obvious, no clean water, no good nutritiun, general lack of sanitation etc etc. How can drugs, which some of them are so toxic they have been proven to kill, help people in this country which already have weak immune systems ? Is the western world just killing off Africans with 'vaccine' and 'aids' drugs programs ? I think yes.

[Tyler_JC]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dukey', 'i')f HIV did cause aids
it would have spread like any other infectous disease rather than staying in the original risk groups (ie gays)
Prostitutes would have spread it like crazy .. One of my friends got something like gonorrhea in his mouth from going down on a Thai prostitute,, they dont use protection. Why don't we ever hear about aids from these places?

and 'apparantly' it can take a long time for 'aids' to develop when you get HIV. So if this was really true, millions and millions of people would have caught HIV and not known, then we would have had a huge outbreak in both males and females ! (Lots of these gay men are also bisexual). This just hasn't happened.

And how is what people call AIDs in africa any different to people just having poor immune systems due to lack of nutritiun, clean water etc, then just dying of any old disease. Why is AIDs in africa 50:50 male female. When in the western world it's strictly gay men. How can that possibly be the same disease ? Can you name 1 .. other disease like that. Just one ...

How can we possibly help these people in Africa with drugs ? when the reason they are probably in such a poor state is the obvious, no clean water, no good nutritiun, general lack of sanitation etc etc. How can drugs, which some of them are so toxic they have been proven to kill, help people in this country which already have weak immune systems ? Is the western world just killing off Africans with 'vaccine' and 'aids' drugs programs ? I think yes.

[Tyler_JC]

And by the way, HIV/AIDS is increasingly becoming a problem among African Americans in general and African American women in particular.

Nearly half of the AIDS infected in the USA are black, despite making up only 13% of the population.

Also, 1 in 3 of the AIDS-infected are women.

That video is so out of date and scientifically incorrect it's terrifying.

[EnergyUnlimited]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'A')nd by the way, HIV/AIDS is increasingly becoming a problem among African Americans in general and African American women in particular.

Nearly half of the AIDS infected in the USA are black, despite making up only 13% of the population.

Also, 1 in 3 of the AIDS-infected are women.

That video is so out of date and scientifically incorrect it's terrifying.

[TommyJefferson]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dukey', 'i')f HIV did cause aids

[Tyler_JC]

I grabbed 10,000 innocent people, gave them a year's supply of ecstacy tablets and encouraged them to engage in all kinds of debauchery. Then I studied the results...

I copied a chart from wikipedia.

And the person who wrote that entry got the information from the CDC and other sources.

(List of sources for that chart according to wikipedia, and who messes around with the links in wikipedia? Moreover, who would write such detailed fake links?)

"^ Donegan, E., Stuart, M., Niland, J. C., Sacks, H. S., Azen, S. P., Dietrich, S. L., Faucett, C., Fletcher, M. A., Kleinman, S. H., Operskalski, E. A., et al. (1990). "Infection with human immunodeficiency virus type 1 (HIV-1) among recipients of antibody-positive blood donations". Ann. Intern. Med. 113 (10): 733–739. PubMed.
^ a b Coovadia, H. (2004). "Antiretroviral agents—how best to protect infants from HIV and save their mothers from AIDS". N. Engl. J. Med. 351 (3): 289–292. PubMed.
^ Kaplan, E. H. and Heimer, R. (1995). "HIV incidence among New Haven needle exchange participants: updated estimates from syringe tracking and testing data". J. Acquir. Immune Defic. Syndr. Hum. Retrovirol. 10 (2): 175–176. PubMed.
^ a b c d European Study Group on Heterosexual Transmission of HIV (1992). "Comparison of female to male and male to female transmission of HIV in 563 stable couples". BMJ. 304 (6830): 809–813. PubMed.
^ a b c d e f Varghese, B., Maher, J. E., Peterman, T. A., Branson, B. M. and Steketee, R. W. (2002). "Reducing the risk of sexual HIV transmission: quantifying the per-act risk for HIV on the basis of choice of partner, sex act, and condom use". Sex. Transm. Dis. 29 (1): 38–43. PubMed.
^ Bell, D. M. (1997). "Occupational risk of human immunodeficiency virus infection in healthcare workers: an overview.". Am. J. Med. 102 (5B): 9–15. PubMed.
^ Leynaert, B., Downs, A. M. and de Vincenzi, I. (1998). "Heterosexual transmission of human immunodeficiency virus: variability of infectivity throughout the course of infection. European Study Group on Heterosexual Transmission of HIV". Am. J. Epidemiol. 148 (1): 88–96. PubMed. "

[threadbear]

There is always a tremendous amount of uncertainty about something like AIDs, a complicated, apparently "new" biological phenonmenon. Add to the mix, the profit potential to potentially distort the reality, and the fact that the layman doesn't have a grasp of the fine details that constitute informed opinion, and you have an epistemological quagmire to navigate. Is there any wonder people are skeptical and remain so.

That's where I am, skeptical and remain so...Mullis is still skeptical himself, according to some correspondence I've been reading.

Insults are so inappropriate in a discussion of this nature. I suggest, Energy Unlimited that you can them.

[EnergyUnlimited]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'I') grabbed 10,000 innocent people, gave them a year's supply of ecstacy tablets and encouraged them to engage in all kinds of debauchery. Then I studied the results...

I copied a chart from wikipedia.

And the person who wrote that entry got the information from the CDC and other sources.