[mmasters]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ferrelgiraffe', 'Y')ou have to remember the first cases were mostly all homosexual and they died, long before AZT was used or invented. AZT may or may not make it worse I dont know I dont ahve stats.

[TommyJefferson]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mmasters', 'A')ZT was introduced in the Mid 80s.

[Kingcoal]

I think Dukey was the first one to post this piece. It's great and it goes along with my experience working in the medical device industry. It's all about money, period. I had a hard time explaining that to Smallpoxgirl...

The video explains how magical powers, not seen in any other pathogen, are ascribed to the mythical HIV. Funny thing that the guy who "discovered" HIV/AIDS, was previously convinced that the HPV was also responsible for cancer.

A lot of blame has to be put on the Gay Activists for insisting (as if they were scientists) that this sickness was a new disease and that people who were skeptical of that were "deniers." I love this use of the term 'denier.' Might as well just go all the way and insert the word heretic. The funniest thing about AIDS is that all you need to be diagnosed with it is the virus antibody and the symptoms. You can have all the symptoms, like many drug addicts do, but no HIV, so, well, you have something but it's definitely not AIDS. How about an immune system ravaged by drug abuse? No, that would be too judgmental on those who are afflicted, not PC, sorry.

[TheDude]

Peter Duesberg wrote about this in the 80s, I remember reading his articles in Rolling Stone back then, the theory that AIDS victims were like postage stamp collectors, but viruses instead of stamps. Always made good sense to me - he pointed out all the fantastic qualities HIV was supposed to have, seven year gestation time (or whatever the term is) for instance. HIV was just another virus along for the ride.

Aids Reappraisal. Or "Denial."

I like the idea of Global Warming Denial. Maybe all these mountains are heating up from within, melting their glaciers...

[Falconoffury]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'L')ets watch what happens to your T cell count and how many illnesses you catch after that.

and do not take any drugs for it. Lets see if you get aids.

[NEOPO]

Masters, it is excellent to see other's going through the cycle of conspiracy.

Tell me, is it NOT way FN worse then you ever imagined prior to doing your own CT homework... er what?

Salute! comrade and at the same time mourn for all of those SO full of fear and other emotion's to be unable to honestly approach and disect the lie's from the truth. Most of these people think that Peak Oil is the only red pill

Operation Paperclip...

[Bas]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mmasters', '
')
I've convinced the homosexuals were a test group for the general population. If you look at the deaths they were not many at all. 5K? maybe 10K? Not much more than would die from careless hard drug use which first became prevelent in the US in the early 80s.



AZT was introduced in the Mid 80s.

[mmasters]

It's not that much:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Number of known deaths in US during 1981 -- 234
Number of known deaths in US during 1982 -- 853
Number of known deaths in US during 1983 -- 2304
Number of known deaths in US during 1984 -- 4251
Number of known deaths in US during 1985 -- 5636

http://www.aegis.com/topics/timeline/default.asp

[mmasters]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he Gay Experiment That Started AIDS In America
by Alan Cantwell, M.D

There is no doubt that AIDS erupted in the U.S. shortly after government-sponsored hepatitis B vaccine experiments (1978-1981) using gay men as guinea pigs. The epidemic was caused by the “introduction” of a new retrovirus (the human immunodeficiency virus, or HIV for short); and the introduction of a new herpes-8 virus, the virus that causes Kaposi’s sarcoma, widely known as the “gay cancer” of AIDS.

The taboo theory that AIDS is a man-made disease is largely based on research showing an intimate connection between government vaccine experiments and the outbreak of “the gay plague.

The widely accepted theory is that HIV/AIDS originated in a monkey or chimpanzee virus that “jumped species” in Africa.

However, it is clear that the first AIDS cases were recorded in gay men in Manhattan in 1979, a few years before the epidemic was first noticed in Africa in 1982. It is now claimed that the human herpes-8 virus (also called the KS virus), discovered in 1994, also originated when a primate herpes virus jumped species in Africa.How did two African species-jumping viruses ended up exclusively in gay men in Manhattan beginning in the late 1970s has never been satisfactorily explained.

Researchers who claim AIDS is a man-made disease believe it is much more likely that these two primate viruses were introduced and spread during the government’s recruitment of thousands of male homosexuals beginning in 1974.
Large numbers of gay men in Manhattan donated blood for the experimental hepatitis B vaccine trial, which took place at the New York Blood Center in Manhattan in 1978. Extensive evidence supporting the man-made theory of AIDS is easily found on the Internet by Googling: man-made origin of AIDS; and in my two books, “AIDS and the Doctors of Death” and “Queer Blood: The Secret AIDS Genocide Plot.”
Government interest in “gay health” before the AIDS epidemic

Beginning in the mid-1970s, government scientists became interested in the health of gay men, particularly in the realm of sexually-transmitted diseases, and specifically in the sexual transmission of the hepatitis B virus. The early 1970s was a time when large numbers of gays come out of the closet and identified themselves as homosexuals at government-sponsored health clinics. Organizations such as the Gay Men’s Health Project were formed at this time. Promiscuous gays were avidly sought as volunteers to test the efficacy of a newly-developed hepatitis B vaccine manufactured by Merck and the National Institutes of Health (NIH).

By 1977 over 13,000 Manhattan gays were screened to secure the final 1083 men who would serve as guinea pigs to test the hepatitis B vaccine. The vaccine was manufactured from the combined plasma of 30 highly selected gay men who carried the hepatitis B virus in their blood. Developed over a period of 65 weeks during 1977-1978 and tested for six months in chimpanzees (the primate in which HIV is thought to have originated), the first group of gay men were inoculated at the New York Blood Center in November 1978.

That same year a final cohort of 6875 homosexual men at the San Francisco City Clinic was assembled to study hepatitis B virus sexual transmission in that city. By the end of the decade gays in clinics in Los Angeles, Denver, Chicago, and St. Louis, also came under surveillance by the Centers for Disease Control. An additional 1402 volunteers were finally selected to participate in similar vaccine experiments in those cities beginning in March 1980.

Before 1978 there was no stored blood anywhere in the U.S. that tested positive for HIV or the KS virus. There were no cases of AIDS and no cases of “gay cancer” in young men. The first cases of AIDS appeared shortly after the experiment began in Manhattan. In June 1981 the epidemic became official and was quickly labeled the “gay ­related immune deficiency syndrome”, later known as AIDS.

The gay community was the most hated minority in America. After the experiments ended, the gay community was decimated by the “gay plague.” In the first years of AIDS, the epidemic was largely ignored by the government (see Randy Shilt’s best-seller, “And the Band Played On”) and the disease was blamed on gay anal sex, drugs, and promiscuity. Gays were immediately labeled “high risk.”

In my view, what made gay men “high risk” was the fact that they were the exclusive volunteers for government medical experiments that undoubtedly put them at “high risk.” The evidence for this conclusion is outlined in this report. Further evidence can be obtained from abstracts of scientific reports available on the Internet at the PubMed website of the National Library of Medicine.

More at:
http://notaids.com/en/node/84

[mmasters]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NEOPO', 'M')asters, it is excellent to see other's going through the cycle of conspiracy.

[steam_cannon]

mmasters, no disrespect what so ever. Questioning if AIDS is a hoax is a very reasonable question. I watched the video but it is still my conclusion that AIDS is a side effect from infected T-Cells and the video is bunk, he're why...

Regarding the virus being slow to act and few of the virus being left during AIDS.
A good place to start, I'll kill two birds with one stone here...

Reflecting on the video they mention that when a person has AIDS they have very few of the virus left. But this would make perfect sense if AIDS is simply caused by sensitized immune cells destroying each other. If that is the case, then the virus causes an incurable auto immune disease and having antibodies to the virus means you have antibodies against yourself, guaranteeing your own slow death if you still have the virus or not.

This would make sense because other retroviruses infect skin cells, lung cells, liver cells... But this one retrovirus infects immune cells. The achilles heal of the immune system is that it has no immune system for itself, so it makes sense that the immune system fails when it is infected directly. Deadly staph infections deal with the immune system by killing immune cells, but in nature staph is normally more mild because attacking immune cells directly usually kills the host and ends the disease. But AIDS doesn't kill the immune cells, it only infects them leaving the host alive and perhaps causing them to target each other. It would be like if you got a virus that infects joints. Your immune system could become sensitized to the cells of your joints and then you could have a degenerative auto immune disease of the joints, even if there were no more viruses left. But if the virus infects immune cells, well then immune cells would destroy each other or themselves and after several years everything would fall apart, even if there were no viruses left...

So like degenerative arthritis, this process would take years; or less depending on factors like the initial severity of the infection, disease strain and the immune system of the individual. There may be better explanations of the slow virus behavior, but this was just the first thing that came to my mind.

Regarding the video, I was reading a little more and Dr. David Ho who was mentioned in the video is studying this sort of hypothesis. The video criticized his procedure, they question if the virus is live at the time of testing. But this is kind of dumb, because that's not what he's studying... It's initial replication rates and the impact on the immune system that he was studying, so it doesn't matter if this virus can further infect the patient or not.
http://www.pbs.org/becomingamerican/ap_ ... ipt3b.html

"AIDS and related syndromes as a viral-induced autoimmune disease of the immune system: an anti-MHC II disorder. Therapeutic implications."
http://tinyurl.com/2lnb7z

-------------------------------------------------

Incurable? Perhaps.
Many viral diseases can not be cured. The common cold, herpes, hepatitis... Viral diseases can be treated but many are incurable. And creating a vaccine against an autoimmune reaction may be impossible. If AIDS is an autoimmune reaction, a vaccine would probably cause the disease.

Are there any other diseases where antibodies are created but fail to save the organism?
Yeah, lots. Many species have similar immune diseases to AIDS, Cats, Monkeys... So it's something that can evolve in the wild and by directly infecting immune cells, may be impossible to defeat. The achilles heal of cellular immune system is that the immune system has no immune system. And to be a disease of the immune system it must be blood based, so naturally it would function as a sexually transmitted disease, as opposed to a skin disease or repertory disease.

-------------------------------------------------

Regarding the small group the disease was discovered in first.
Well, I have some thoughts on that... Most diseases follow a discovery curve. (the discovery data mentioned in the video is wrong) First a few scientists start recognizing it and then more scientists and doctors test for it. Then many doctors test for it. And the curve for disease spread is normally ahead of the discoverery curve. I remember in Pennsylvania, there was a time that Lyme disease was not treated because it was not an accepted disease yet, so patients had to go to other states like New Jersey... Same for a number of tick born illnesses. Eventually Lyme was accepted and tested for in PA and the national charts showing diseases spread included PA. I'm just saying that this was probably spreading before there was testing for it and I doubt the disease is a symptom of treatment, misdiagnosis or a disease of ancient origin. But wasting diseases have been with us for a long time so who knows...

-------------------------------------------------

The videos comments on Robert Gallo, are pretty far off and would mislead the average person who wouldn't know much about these characters. There are infectious viruses that cause cancer, like HPV. There is further research on breast cancer viral connections. That is a fairly legitimate area of study and I don't see why they are attacking his work in this video. The big FAILED stamp they flash on the screen is really unjustified and misleading. Also the immune system mops up many cancer cells, so a disease of the immune system which stops this process could certainly be found in a cancer study. The whole thing on violating scientific protocol, yeah right, early press releases are shot out all the time.

An example of a misleading statement: "Only 48% of his early patients had traces of the virus, but then later he said he could diagnose it with 98% certainty..." This is misleading because it's not an argument. Of course the diagnostic methods improved! That's how all disease studies are.

Dr. Peter Duesberg - The main scientist featured in the video.
"Duesberg's claims have been examined and rejected as disproven by the scientific community. Duesberg was praised for his work by Robert Gallo, the co-discoverer of HIV.[6] Duesberg and Gallo later became highly critical of each other's work.[citation needed] Duesberg now funds his research from sources other than NIH, including private contributions and the sales of his books. He lives in Germany for part of the year."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Duesberg

Sounds like he makes his money by criticizing Gallo...

-------------------------------------------------

Does AZT kill, probably.
But that's not the same as causing the primary disease. Discussing the lousyness of an AIDS "cure" doesn't really add much to their video and doesn't convince me the cause of the disease is this new treatment.

An amusing thought, that would be like implying syphilis was caused by early "mercury antibiotic" treatments (the best treatments available at one time)...

-------------------------------------------------

I could go on about the other minutia, but really I don't see any good points made in this video. My thoughts, the points the video brings up are mostly bad and unfounded arguments. Each one would be easy enough to shoot down as wrong, irrelevant or misleading. But together they make an impressive collection!

Seriously, you can have your own opinions on these arguments. But the arguments in this video are not convincing to me. Just my opinion...

[steam_cannon]

A related topic, is the HIV virus part of a government conspiracy?
Well, probably not, but you know I understand the appeal of the idea.

We humans are facing severe population pressure and a disease that culls the lesser few would could be an appealing X-Files like solution. The disease culls the poor, unusual, black populations and populations that are breeding too much? Perhaps so. And so I can see why someone would consider the possibility that an evil group might create such a disease on purpose.

Such a group wouldn't need to create a cure, as behavior is the cure. And they would just need to find some monkeys with some nasty diseases...

But I don't think a conspiracy is necessary, I think this happened because of overpopulation:
1. increased population = increased population of diseases
2. increased travel = increased spread of disease
3. population pressure encouraging people to eat monkey meat.

http://www.maxent.org/ch/monkey_brains.html
Eating live monkey brains is something of an Urban Legend, but eating poorly cooked monkey meat is real.

4. and of course, Monkey #%$@ers


HIV-1 and HIV-2 found in wild monkeys
"In May 2006, an international group of researchers led by Hahn answered two major questions about the origin of HIV-1 M, the deadliest and most widespread form of the virus: Where was its cradle, and what kind of chimp did it come from? Answering the questions was literally messy work -- researchers collected 599 waste samples from wild chimpanzees and analyzed the viral particles they contained -- but the results were immaculate. Three populations of Pan troglodytes troglodytes living in southern Cameroon provided the crucial data. Two of those populations currently carry SIVs that are molecular dead ringers for HIV-1 M..."
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... igins.html

And other animals have diseases like this...

Feline Immune Deficiency Virus

http://www.petcaretips.net/feline_immun ... virus.html

So just remember everyone...
"Love your pets, but don't love your pets!" - Abby

[dukey]

i've done quite a lot of research on aids .. as part of my learning journey into whats wrong with healthcare ..

Even if .. the unproven hypothesis that HIV causes AIDs is correct. The drugs that aids patients are given to 'extend' their lives are just total no brainers. It's almost amazing drugs like AZT which were too toxic for dying cancer patients were aproved for use with AIDs patients. It doesn't take a genius to link the health problems of people taking these drugs .. to the drugs. DNA chain terminators anyone ?

something i found in the news today from this guy

The Kenyan economics expert James Shikwati

http://www.spiegel.de/international/spi ... 63,00.html

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')hikwati: AIDS is big business, maybe Africa's biggest business. There's nothing else that can generate as much aid money as shocking figures on AIDS. AIDS is a political disease here, and we should be very skeptical.

[Kingcoal]

I think you guys aren't getting it here. AIDS is not a conspiracy; it's just a politicized medical condition that is being taken advantage of by big companies around the world. The people DEMANDED that AIDS be classified as a disease caused by a virus and big pharma complied when they saw the money making potential. It's just another example of science derailed by politics.

The AIDS set of symptoms is real. The virus is also real. How one relates to the other is still open for debate. If I have the authority, I can decree that from now on, all people who own firearms AND who read PO.com are suffering from a condition called PO-itis. I can demonstrate data showing that a large slice, maybe even a majority of those Americans posting on PO.com own firearms. I then hand that over to big Pharma who come up with drugs to help the "condition." That's how it works. The problem is that there are real scientists out there and they start to point out that European posters generally don't own firearms and I answer that this is because of their physical location and that the disease is location dependant. I hire a fleet of PhDs to make it sound all complicated and publish it. As this video points out, the same kind of wacky explanations are brought up to explain some of the apparent magical properties of HIV. Believe me; people are conditioned to accept authority. It was easier to invent the HIV/AIDS disease than it was to explain to the public that dying from a damaged immune system probably has a number of factors causing the condition and those factors are different from person to person - like cancer. In fact, a lot of AIDS patents die of cancer. Many different diseases cause a “wasting away” set of symptoms.

[killJOY]

A host of my friends died of AIDS, before the onset of AZT and anti-viral meds.

Now, a host of my friends are alive, and healthy, after their AIDS diagnoses, due to the maintenance programs recommended by informed AIDS specialists.

This thread this a disgrace.

http://snopes.com/medical/disease/aids.asp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV_and_AI ... onceptions

[EnergyUnlimited]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('killJOY', 'A') host of my friends died of AIDS, before the onset of AZT and anti-viral meds.

Now, a host of my friends are alive, and healthy, after their AIDS diagnoses, due to the maintenance programs recommended by informed AIDS specialists.

This thread this a disgrace.

http://snopes.com/medical/disease/aids.asp

[cynicalheretic]

This thread is pathetic. Aids is very much real. Are there not enough real conspiracies out there for you?

That video is a joke and so are you!

[steam_cannon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cynicalheretic', 'T')his thread is pathetic. Aids is very much real. Are there not enough real conspiracies out there for you?
That video is a joke and so are you!