[Ingenuity_Gap]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('strider3700', 'A')lthough I agree with your post I have to point out that if your fridge runs almost 24/7 then you've got something wrong with your fridge. Mine runs somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 the time depending on the inside temperature. It's quite old and newer ones will work less then that.

[yesplease]

I disagree about light bulbs being our last concern. They are the low hanging fruit so to speak, and can cut consumption by ~10-20%, and the bill by the same or more, with relative ease. Sure, a fridge may use more, but most people aren't receptive to the idea of a cooler like design, and probably wouldn't build their own. Even if a big chunk of the work done cooling the air inside is undone every time the door is opened and all that cold air "falls" out. The same goes for insulating a house... I suppose I could rank driving efficiently above light bulbs, since a 30-50% increase in mileage can save more money, but it's much harder to break people of their driving habits than it is for them to simply replace dead incandescents with lower power versions.

[snax]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ingenuity_Gap', 'R')emember that compact fluorescent bulbs cost more both in terms of price and resources used for their manufacture. Same as switching to hybrid cars: the energy saving is nothing compared to their price and the resources used to build them. Especially if you drive them on the highway, which is what most of us do.

[Ender]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Terrapin', 'G')ood question.
I don’t know what they do with it, I suspect that they bury it in some relatively bomb proof pit someplace. (?)

[kochevnik]

I get massive headaches from fluorescent lights at work. I think they are one of the shittiest things ever invented.

--------------------------------------------------

Health Hazards of Fluorescent Lighting

Known effects and their likely causes

The following is a list of symptoms and diseases known to be linked to exposure to fluorescent lighting:

*

Headache, eyestrain, eye irritation, fatigue, difficulty in concentration, increased rate of ‘misjudgments’ and accidents, malaise and irritability can be caused by noise, glare and flicker from fluorescent lighting.

*

Increased stress (which may in turn lead to heart disease) can arise from increasing the intensity of artificial light with fluorescent tubes. It has been shown that increased use of artificial light (rather than natural light) affects the levels of hormones in the body, particularly the hormones associated with stress, such as cortisol.

*

Variation in brightness, as provided by daylight, is necessary for the normal functioning of the body’s rhythms. The monotonous illumination of fluorescent lighting may also add to the changes in hormone production.

*

Allergic skin reactions and dermatitis can be caused by exposure to fluorescent lights. An unknown number of people suffer from ‘cutaneous light sensitivity’ due to fluorescent lights. This means that not only can they become allergic to fluorescent lighting but they can become more sensitive to ordinary sunlight.

*

Certain long-term, mild skin diseases can become worse if the sufferer is exposed to fluorescent light. Some medical drugs (including some tranquilizers, antibiotics, heart drugs and diuretics) can make you particularly sensitive to UV radiation (photosensitivity). Skin eruptions then occur even with the small doses of UV (in the 300-320nm wavelength range) emitted by white fluorescent lights.

*

Hyperactivity has been linked to the flickering produced by fluorescent lighting. Microwave emissions from fluorescent lighting are also suspected of contributing to these behavioral disorders. Other mild behavioral disorders in children may be made worse by working at school under fluorescent lighting.

Suspected effects

There is also some evidence that the following effects may be caused by exposure to fluorescent lights:

*

Increased risk of seizure in epilepsy sufferers

*

Higher incidence of miscarriage

*

Speeding up the aging of the retina.

[Dukat_Reloaded]

The incandescent bulbs emit a broader range of frequencies like natural light rather than these new CFG's which only emit a very narrow band frequency tuned into the narrow visible light band. I don't like them, I like the incandescent better, I live in Australia and I have been stocking up on the incandescents.

[strider3700]

Canada has decided to follow suit and bad the incandecants as well. I still can't track down a bulb that will work with the dimmer in my ceiling fan though....

[TechnoJabber]

Has anyone published any stats on the amount of energy required to make a CFG vs. the amount of energy it saves long term?
We just our whole house changed over using www.envirosaver.com.au and it got me thinking when we would reach the "break-even" point. i.e. where the energy saved by the new globes outstripped the energy it took to get them to me (including manufacturing, packaging, transport etc)
I see this aspect forgotten in many areas regarding PO, especially when it comes to touting the pro's of alternative energies.

[TommyJefferson]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NEOPO', 'B')ravo for AU.

[pea-jay]

As much I favor the outlaw of incandecents, I think it is the total wrong way to go about it. We've got part of the solution working already by subsidizing CFL purchase. I've replaced all but a few.

Rather than banning incandecents, I advocate a $3 per bulb tax on them, with the proceeds going to fund energy efficiency measures. This way those who want to keep using them can and still can help reduce overall levels. But the vast majority of purchases will shift as people notice the price difference and switch

[EnergyUnlimited]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pea-jay', 'A')s much I favor the outlaw of incandecents, I think it is the total wrong way to go about it. We've got part of the solution working already by subsidizing CFL purchase. I've replaced all but a few.

Rather than banning incandecents, I advocate a $3 per bulb tax on them, with the proceeds going to fund energy efficiency measures. This way those who want to keep using them can and still can help reduce overall levels. But the vast majority of purchases will shift as people notice the price difference and switch

[strider3700]

making incandecents illegal or taxing them heavily at time of purchase will only open up opportunities for the black market to fill. The reason we're doing this is because people are "wasting" electricity and that electricity is dirty to produce. So make the electricity in a clean manner and charge appropriately for it. Everything else is just complicating the system and creating loopholes to be abused.

[Bas]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('strider3700', 'm')aking incandecents illegal or taxing them heavily at time of purchase will only open up opportunities for the black market to fill. The reason we're doing this is because people are "wasting" electricity and that electricity is dirty to produce. So make the electricity in a clean manner and charge appropriately for it. Everything else is just complicating the system and creating loopholes to be abused.

[strider3700]

You won't get a worldwide ban on the bulbs anytime soon. Until that happens if there is demand for them in Canada they will be smuggled across the border from the US. Back in the early 90's cigarette taxes where set so high the price per back was the same as it is now. smuggled cigarettes from the US flooded into the country and it was such a problem the government dropped the taxes back to keep everyone happy.

[pea-jay]

Agreed. A ban needs to be at least broad or it is going to encourage *some* smuggling, though bulbs arent the same easy to conceal product that drugs or cigarettes are, plus they are more fragile. No body cavity searches for contraband bulbs!

Still a ban is not necessary. Penalty taxes are far more effective. If it detered you from purchasing an incandencent bulb, society wins and you benefited from an inexpensive source of light. If it did not deter you from buying that bulb and you went ahead anyway, society will still win because your high fee has made its way to a program to reduce energy consumption somewhere else (like replacing appliances in rental apartments where few if any existing energy incentives really function that well) while you get the bulb you really wanted.

The price needs to be set at a point where it either deters the maximum number of people from purchsing incandecents or funds programs that reduce energy in equal or greater amounts than would have been saved by buying a CFL bulb.

Sometimes bans arent the answer to everything

[nate33]

Incandescent bulbs are wasteful because the emit a considerable amount of heat energy in addition to light.

However, has anybody stopped to consider that his additional heat energy emitted isn't really all that wasteful during the times of year that the heater is running? Essentially, the heat produced by the incandescent bulbs means that the central heat doesn't need to work quite as hard.

If you have a home with electric heat there is essentially no wasted energy. There may be some wasted energy if your central heat is run by heat pump. And there may be some wasted energy if your central heat is gas heat (though gas heat is getting nearly as expensive as electric heat these days).

For that matter, it's not really all that wasteful to leave your refrigerator door open in the winter. All "wasteful" electrical appliances waste their energy in the form of heat. As long as you use that heat, you aren't wasting anything.

[emailking]

Well if your climate is such that you have to heat all year round I guess it doesn't make much difference. I live in Maryland and only use heat maybe 5 months of the year. And since I use A/C for another 5 months it's even worse because I have to pump the extra heat out. So I think it's good to promote these changes as all around energy savings. I think most people would just get confused if they knew it doesn't make much difference in the winter.

[nate33]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('emailking', 'W')ell if your climate is such that you have to heat all year round I guess it doesn't make much difference. I live in Maryland and only use heat maybe 5 months of the year. And since I use A/C for another 5 months it's even worse because I have to pump the extra heat out. So I think it's good to promote these changes as all around energy savings. I think most people would just get confused if they knew it doesn't make much difference in the winter.

[skyemoor]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('nate33', 'I')f you have a home with electric heat there is essentially no wasted energy. There may be some wasted energy if your central heat is run by heat pump. And there may be some wasted energy if your central heat is gas heat (though gas heat is getting nearly as expensive as electric heat these days).

[nate33]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('skyemoor', '
')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('nate33', 'F')or that matter, it's not really all that wasteful to leave your refrigerator door open in the winter.