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THE Dr. A. M. Bakhtiari Thread (merged)

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Re: Bakhtiari says peak oil was in 2006

Unread postby KevO » Mon 23 Apr 2007, 08:54:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Leanan', '[')url=http://www.sfu.ca/~asamsamb/THE%20%20CENTURY%20%20OF%20%20ROOTS/THE%20%20CENTURY%20%20OF%20%20ROOTS.htm]THE CENTURY OF ROOTS[/url]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he 21st century is still young as there are another ninety-three years to go. So it might sound over-ambitious to claim that 'The Event of the Century' is already behind us. But I'll gladly take the risk; for I seriously believe that the peaking of the global production of crude oil --- commonly know as 'Peak Oil' --- has occurred in 2006 and will be 'The Event' bound to dominate the history of the 21st century:


I guess he, if anyone, should know
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Re: Bakhtiari says peak oil was in 2006

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Mon 23 Apr 2007, 09:01:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Hawkcreek', '[')b]dhfenton wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he military interventions that we have seen so far prove fairly conclusively that occupation doesn't work any more.

The only reason they don't work is that no one has been willing to kill everyone in sight that doesn't completely cooperate.
The Germans managed to control quite a bit of territory, with not too much oppositon.
Changing conditions will probably bring back the old days - you know, piles of skulls, lime pits, etc, etc.

There is always nuclear alternative to your scenario, albeit "old days" you mention will come back about a century later...
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Re: Bakhtiari says peak oil was in 2006

Unread postby kokoda » Mon 23 Apr 2007, 10:11:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newsseeker', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ayame', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kokoda', '
')Nobody may get to retire in the future. You will get to work until you are either too frail, too sick, too hungry or too injured to do so ... at which point you will die.


Yes. The up and coming mantra is 'no retire just expire'.


Then have your body thrown into a thermal depolymerization plant and come out as oil for others to consume.


What! You mean throw away all that useful protein?
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Re: Bakhtiari says peak oil was in 2006

Unread postby Newsseeker » Mon 23 Apr 2007, 10:32:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kokoda', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newsseeker', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ayame', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kokoda', '
')Nobody may get to retire in the future. You will get to work until you are either too frail, too sick, too hungry or too injured to do so ... at which point you will die.


Yes. The up and coming mantra is 'no retire just expire'.


Then have your body thrown into a thermal depolymerization plant and come out as oil for others to consume.


What! You mean throw away all that useful protein?


Hadn't thought about that. I guess if things get really desperate people will be drawing lots for those around Rosie O'Donnell's size. The others will be driving. Tough choice: eat or drive. I know what the SUV drivers will decide!
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More from Bakhtiari

Unread postby Newsseeker » Wed 25 Apr 2007, 17:16:04

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Re: More from Bakhtiari

Unread postby Troyboy1208 » Wed 25 Apr 2007, 17:31:23

What a profound and sobering article...Im going to go take my antidepressant now. I had no idea that this particular expert had such an explicit timeline. Whats scary is that Bakhtiari doesnt seem to have an ulterior motive for doing this other than trying to educate people. I have been talkinga bout peak oil for several years now and it often falls on deaf ears. Most people think ethanol will save us...sheesh the ignorance
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Re: More from Bakhtiari

Unread postby Newsseeker » Wed 25 Apr 2007, 18:06:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Troyboy1208', 'W')hat a profound and sobering article...Im going to go take my antidepressant now. I had no idea that this particular expert had such an explicit timeline. Whats scary is that Bakhtiari doesnt seem to have an ulterior motive for doing this other than trying to educate people. I have been talkinga bout peak oil for several years now and it often falls on deaf ears. Most people think ethanol will save us...sheesh the ignorance


What's also scary is that he was with Iran's oil for a while and is from the Middle East.
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Re: More from Bakhtiari

Unread postby AFO » Wed 25 Apr 2007, 18:34:10

Thus, according to Bakhtiari, in 2006, depletion was greater, by more than 1 mb/d, than new discoveries and reserve growth, including oil produced from unconventional sources such as the tar sands.

According to my calculation, that equals to 1% depletion for 2006.
How may more cumulative depletion % will it take for people to be convinced that peak oil is real & has arrived.
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Re: More from Bakhtiari

Unread postby Newsseeker » Wed 25 Apr 2007, 18:43:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AFO', 'T')hus, according to Bakhtiari, in 2006, depletion was greater, by more than 1 mb/d, than new discoveries and reserve growth, including oil produced from unconventional sources such as the tar sands.

According to my calculation, that equals to 1% depletion for 2006.
How may more cumulative depletion % will it take for people to be convinced that peak oil is real & has arrived.

Even when the gasoline stations are empty people will still be praying to ethanol and thermal depolymerization to save us. I think for the broad masses there will never come a wake up call. PO aware means being in the minority of the people who consciously realize they are living in the greatest event of the century, and perhaps of all human history.
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Re: More from Bakhtiari

Unread postby Cobra_Strike » Wed 25 Apr 2007, 19:46:10

There was a article posted a few days ago, where a chairmen/CEO or something talked about 'production meeting demand unless there were more refinery explosions' well...a few months fro now, assuming that the decline continues, those refinery problems will be cited as the cause of the failure to meet demand.

I would think that above ground factors will be blamed, even a decade after peak, for production shortfalls. Even after many of the otherwise smart people in the world have realized that its geological shortcoming that are reducing production. That or war will sidetrack people...
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Re: More from Bakhtiari

Unread postby Newsseeker » Wed 25 Apr 2007, 19:49:10

Right you are Cobra. People never tire of looking for excuses and fail to see the elephant in the room. There is a growing chorus about refinery issues and this summer but if KSA continues to cut production my money is on underlying geological issues otherwise known as PO having happened in May 2005.
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Re: More from Bakhtiari

Unread postby Coolman » Thu 26 Apr 2007, 01:42:02

I always liked Bakhtiari. He is from the middle east too and that is why I respect him. He does not seem to have any outside motive. I believe he will be the most correct when it comes to the peak.

I also think Jeffery Brown and Kenneth Deffeyes are smart guys too, they are both on the same boat as Bakhtiari.
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Re: More from Bakhtiari

Unread postby shortonoil » Thu 26 Apr 2007, 09:37:29

AFO said:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hus, according to Bakhtiari, in 2006, depletion was greater, by more than 1 mb/d, than new discoveries and reserve growth, including oil produced from unconventional sources such as the tar sands.


I suspect that Bakhtiari’s statement is a little conservative, it doesn’t appear as if he factored in declining ERoEI, which would add about 1/2% to that number. Neither does he talk about the probable acceleration of the depletion model. If its 1.5 % this year, it will probably be 3+% next. That geometric progression can raise hell, real fast.
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Re: More from Bakhtiari

Unread postby vision-master » Thu 26 Apr 2007, 09:59:16

Last night a good show was on PBS HDTV. It looks like Germany is the leader with solar power. They figure by 2020 30% of their power needs will be taken care of by solar.

Also, there is a power plant somewhere out west (USA) that uses some kind of heat shields to heat water into steam to generate enough electricity for 150,000 homes. Hey, it's a start.

Tech will keep us out of the stone age, but we will have to change our ways. Also, they said the USA as a country ain't doing much to get off da dang oil.
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Re: More from Bakhtiari

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Thu 26 Apr 2007, 10:42:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AFO', 'T')hus, according to Bakhtiari, in 2006, depletion was greater, by more than 1 mb/d, than new discoveries and reserve growth, including oil produced from unconventional sources such as the tar sands.

According to my calculation, that equals to 1% depletion for 2006.
How may more cumulative depletion % will it take for people to be convinced that peak oil is real & has arrived.

There will be a lot of fake reasons given to deny PO reality.
Local US peak was denied for several years, so there is precedence for that.
I think it will be possible to deny global peak for at least 3 years, if it is sharp one or for twice as long if it is flat one.
PO will be discussed during that time hotly but official interpretations will say, that idea is nonsense and new, huge but really non existing oil findings will be frequently announced.
You will hear a lot about biofuels, but only tiny amounts will be coming on the market.
There will be resource wars on Middle East, in Africa and other places. There will be charges against oil producers, that they deliberately want to destroy Western civillization to justify those wars.
Some oil will be coming as a result, and such resource wars will provide for short term mitigation.

The effect of all that will be in tricking population to believe that everything is fine for about 5 years post peak albeit we will feel a very nervous atmosphere around.
Cornerstones of authoritarian rules will be laid down during that period. International order will collapse and global society, United Nations etc will become irrelevant. International finnance will also collapse.
Authoritarian governments will extend something close to current status quo for additional 5 - 10 years more.
Some massive wars, perhaps even atomic war may come towards end of that period.

...and slowly, slowly and later faster and faster more and more people (and sheeple) will realise that TEOTWAWKI is here and now, so sensless panic will follow. Keep out of cities theese days...
There will be a dieoff in various places, albeit if you are American you are likely to witness only relatively timid forms of that...and what goes on in Third World you will not be told.
Your local TV will already be censored for considerable time...

Anyway, that is what I expect to see in the future.
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Re: More from Bakhtiari

Unread postby UFCjunkie » Thu 26 Apr 2007, 11:24:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', 'T')ech will keep us out of the stone age

Really? How are we going to maintain this solar power plants? How are we ging to get extra parts and for how long. I don't think it will work in the long run. But let's hope.

The only way I see we have a technological future is if Aliens come down and give us super hightech stuff. The things we create is only going to slow down the transition to the "new world", but it is coming anyway. I hope we have techs like TV, CDs, Micro, internet and stuff like that but I just wonder how? How are we going to maintain it?
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Re: More from Bakhtiari

Unread postby vision-master » Thu 26 Apr 2007, 11:53:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('UFCjunkie', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', 'T')ech will keep us out of the stone age

Really? How are we going to maintain this solar power plants? How are we ging to get extra parts and for how long. I don't think it will work in the long run. But let's hope.

The only way I see we have a technological future is if Aliens come down and give us super hightech stuff. The things we create is only going to slow down the transition to the "new world", but it is coming anyway. I hope we have techs like TV, CDs, Micro, internet and stuff like that but I just wonder how? How are we going to maintain it?


Some research is being done right now to greatly increase the efficiency of solar panels (NASA is using aready) . Matter of fact, work is being done to develop some kind of solar pant. All is not lost. We have options. What's scaring the shit out of me is the route we (the US) is taking in regards to energy. We need that "purification" in 2012 that the Hopi are predicting to start a new world order.
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Re: More from Bakhtiari

Unread postby shortonoil » Thu 26 Apr 2007, 11:54:39

AFO said:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')here will be a lot of fake reasons given to deny PO reality.


This is certainly true, the Saudis don’t want it known because it would cause huge political problems for their ruling class, the oil companies don’t want it because it would put downward pressure on their stock. No one in the industry, any where, wants it because they know it will increase emphasis on other energy sources, and no one wants competition.

This is all pretty obvious, but there is another reason for the charade, there is 4.5 trillion barrels of oil still in the ground, and everyone can point and say, “we aren’t running out, look at all that oil”. Not only are they saying it, most of them believe it. The concept that peak oil has more to do with how much energy is in the oil, than how much oil is in the ground has a long way to go before PO will be accepted by even the knowledgeable in the industry; to say nothing of the man on the street, who probably doesn’t even know why the lights turns on when he flips the switch!

There is another reason, although we are seeing signs of PO daily, it is easy to ignore; pass the blame off on to something else. That reason is what you get when you plug in all the equations and watch something strange, non-intuitive pop up; net energy on the back side of Hubbert’s curve declines BEFORE physical production declines. Bizarre. Don’t belief it, plug in your own equations and try it out. Take the equation for Hubbert’s curve and subtract the energy decline resulting from declining ERoEI, and see for yourself. What you will find is BIZARRE.

So, since all economic activity requires energy, as available energy declines so will economic activity. But, the kicker is, that the activity declined before oil production went down. Now, try explaining that to the confused fellow with the light switch; I think you will find it sort of like trying to teach advanced algebra to a horse fly. When a few “esteemed” personalities “get it”, and realize that their butt is really truly on the line, that is, if something isn’t done about this SOON, that their kids or kids kids are going to be living in a cardboard box, then the fellows confused about the light switches will follow right alone, like they always do.

Fortunately, there are a few “esteemed” personalities that visit this site
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Re: More from Bakhtiari

Unread postby DantesPeak » Thu 26 Apr 2007, 12:08:14

Shortonoil – well put, as usual.

Declining EROEI is showing up in the US as a surge in oil product demand. Granted that is significantly to do with the use of ethanol, its reduced energy efficiency and the requirement of more diesel in the farm belt to grow corn. But if technology was going to rescue us, we would increasing efficiency in oil product use – not the other way around.

I’m afraid our political and economic systems won’t be adaptable, and may act in a counter-productive fashion, in solving the problems associated with PO.
It's already over, now it's just a matter of adjusting.
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Re: More from Bakhtiari

Unread postby shortonoil » Thu 26 Apr 2007, 12:30:53

DantesPeak said:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')’m afraid our political and economic systems won’t be adaptable, and may act in a counter-productive fashion, in solving the problems associated with PO.


If you were alone, I would have to say, “Yea, another one of them”. But - you aren’t alone!
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