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THE Consumerism Thread (merged)

What's on your mind?
General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.

Re: Orgasm of Consumerism

Unread postby PrairieMule » Fri 08 Dec 2006, 18:02:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SinisterBlueCat', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrairieMule', '
')Sorry, the aim of that joke was to infere that through a delayed purchase, I would obtain a greater form of ecstacy buy paying half of what everyone else is paying now for.


"buy"paying half you would obtain greater ecstacy?

so pm, was this accidentental, intentional, or freudian?


Well after a hour on the couch last night with my Shrink/Vet I think I got a handle on it.
Image

Dr.Bob said since both sex and video games with upgraded memory and graphics are both producers of endorphines, it's more textbook accidental slip and not a unresolved conflict with Mrs.Mule.

Even so it should be noted that even in equine species, the EGO's resolve to live a simple consumer lifestyle is constantly at war with the one's ID desire for endophine producing stimuli. We did have a breakthrough in discovering that my desire to save money stems from me trying please my father.

Something creeps me out about this quack. Maybe its the fact this vet drives a Saab with a Dartsmouth Alumni bumper sticker. I think next time I'll tell him to make like a goose and shove his bill up his ass.
If you give a man a fish you will have kept him from hunger for a day. If you teach a man to fish he will sit in a boat and drink beer all day.
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Re: Orgasm of Consumerism

Unread postby Ayame » Sat 09 Dec 2006, 05:37:42

I know this is an Americas discussion but I can't help posting due to feeling over-nauseous at a BBC report this morning on the Wii console.

They had this smug looking child on who was slouching back in his chair being interviewed about the Wii. He said he had several games consoles but due to limited stocks he was unable to get his hands on a Wii for Christmas. He then said that his Christmas would be overshadowed because of this.

I felt a bit sick. These people really don't have a inkling about the shit that is going to hit them in the future. In the future his Christmases are likely to be overshadowed by not being able to get his hands on enough food or heating.

It's not just the children though, there are a majority of adults roaming around not understanding the fundamental principles of how their society evolved and is maintained. I get angry when I see chavs speeding around in their cars trying to look cool when they don't even have a clue where their petrol is coming from. I just get so disgusted sometimes at the sheer ignorance of the populance.
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Re: Orgasm of Consumerism

Unread postby MD » Sat 09 Dec 2006, 05:46:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrairieMule', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MD', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrairieMule', 'I') saw the PS3 displayed at Wal-Mart last weekend. Very impressive..

For $599 I could add another Brangus calf to herd which in turn could be sold for twice as much in 2-3 years. I'll wait 3 years and buy one used for $199. I guess that makes me a Tantric consumer.


since I have no idea what "Tantric" means, and I don't feel like looking it up right now, I will just call you a wise consumer.


Sorry, the aim of that joke was to infere that through a delayed purchase, I would obtain a greater form of ecstacy buy paying half of what everyone else is paying now for.


Oh! You are a "cheap bastard"! No worries mate, I'm one too!
Stop filling dumpsters, as much as you possibly can, and everything will get better.

Just think it through.
It's not hard to do.
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Re: Orgasm of Consumerism

Unread postby PrairieMule » Mon 11 Dec 2006, 12:32:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MD', '
')
Oh! You are a "cheap bastard"! No worries mate, I'm one too!


:-D Thank you for that compliment! Yes I am proud to be a cheap S-O-B!
If you give a man a fish you will have kept him from hunger for a day. If you teach a man to fish he will sit in a boat and drink beer all day.
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Consume Like There’s No Tomorrow

Unread postby lonewolf » Tue 24 Apr 2007, 11:29:47

Something in the following article for virtually everyone.
Too many 'great' statements of fact included to list (edit). Therefore, article is copied below in its entirety. Hoping that doing so hasn't violated some doctrinal 'prohibition'.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]Consume Like There’s No Tomorrow
by Don Fitz
April 22,2007

Would someone please tell the Sierra Club Exec Board that the idea of an “environmentally friendly car” makes as much sense as a “non-violent death penalty?” While the vast majority of those concerned with global warming consider reduction of unneeded production to be at the core of a sane policy, the Sierra Club has endorsed a plan that includes virtually no role for conservation.

In January 2007, the American Solar Energy Society (ASES) released the 180 page document, Tackling Climate Change in the U.S. Typical of big enviro analyses, it assumes a corporate dominated growth economy. Its novelty is its highly technical studies which claim to compute how much CO2 emissions can be offset by energy efficiency (EE) and renewable energy.

Teaming up with ASES to present the study to Congress, the Sierra Club enthusiastically wrote that “energy efficiency and renewables alone can achieve a 60–80% reduction in global warming emissions by 2050.” Adding the key word “alone” in the first paragraph of its release indicated that the Sierra Club wanted to be sure that politicians and corporate donors understood that it has no intention of criticizing the large quantity of unnecessary junk created by corporate America.

What ain’t there

Solar power, wind power and energy efficiency (EE) play vital roles in reducing CO2. The rub is the role of conservation, or reduction of total production. For “deep greens,” the most basic goal is social change that would foster the reduction of energy. For “shallow greens,” conservation is, at best, something to give lip service to while tunnel visioning on eco-gadgets.

More blatant than the typical corporate enviromental analysis, the ASES/Sierra report trivializes conservation as “doing without” or “deprivation.” It presents a vast array of technological playthings, some of which are quite good and some of which are less than environmental. What is most revealing is what it does not include. It discusses transportation without using the word “bicycle” or “walking.”

It looks at efficient building design with no discussion of using empty buildings or designing buildings to last longer than 50 years. The report that Carl Pope boasts is “now the official Sierra Club global warming strategy” has an extended discussion of home heating and cooling without mentioning the word “tree.” George Monbiot’s recently-published Heat concludes that manufacturing a ton of cement creates a ton of CO2 , a fact not emphasized by proponents of EE buildings.

In the analysis of energy efficiency, the phrase “organic agriculture” never appears and there is no mention of the massive use of petrochemicals or factory farms and there is zero concern with the fact that the average American food item travels 1300 miles from farm to plate. The strange approach to EE does not question the cancerous growth of household appliances, planned obsolescence, or corporate creation of artificial desires for unneeded products.

The authors have no comment on enormous waste in medical care or huge insurance buildings which drain energy while creating nothing of value. The chapters on transportation, such as plug-in hybrid electric cars, ignore the fact that air traffic in the United Kingdom will double by 2030, at which time it will have more effect on global warming than automobiles. The call for a 10 fold increase in biomass says nothing about effects of monocultures, deforestation, genetic engineering or pesticide usage.

Those approaches left out of the big enviro plan for energy efficiency share something: they are common sense low tech or no tech solutions which involve reducing the quantity of production and energy use with no decrease in the quality of life. They have something else in common: they do not involve the swelling of corporate profits via increased manufacture.

When is energy efficiency not efficient?

Almost as much as solar and wind power, energy efficiency is becoming the unquestioned mantra of solutions to global warming. Refrigerators that use 75% less energy are a plus. Even better would be the German-designed Passivhaus, which is so well insulated that it has zero heating and cooling systems.

EE is good. But projections about what it can offer sometimes border on hallucinations. This is the case with the ASES/Sierra claim that EE can offset global warming by 57%.

The first limitation on EE is the old maxim that the more parts there are to a system, the more parts there are to break. The ASES/Sierra report reads like an encyclopedia of techno-fix gadgets for buildings, cars and holes in the earth. Each item involves increased industrial interdependence. As resources come to be in short supply from exhaustion or wars or hoarding, the future is likely to see a decline in the ability to patch up interconnected systems. Becoming more dependent on them more begs for industrial breakdown.

Another factor that works against EE is the law of diminishing returns. Joseph Tainter explained that societies begin to collapse when resources are drained to meet the needs of increasing complexity. Similarly, the biggest impact of discoveries come when they are first introduced. That’s when there is the greatest energy returned on energy invested. Additional refinements tend to cost more and yield less. Oil was cheap and easy to obtain when it oozed to the surface. As time goes on, oil becomes more expensive to pump, the available quantity decreases, and the quality worsens. The biggest impact of drugs came with antibiotics. Now we are bombarded with ads for new drugs that cost more to research but have fewer advantages over the previous generation of drugs.

Technocrats tend to have faith in unlimited potential for EE. The truth is that we have probably seen most of the largest efficiency impacts and future changes will mainly be refinements that offer less and less improvement.

The most important difficulty for EE is the market economy, which corporate environmentalists love so much and understand so little. Corporations do not compete to make less money. They compete to increase their profits. Market forces compel each corporation to expand production as rapidly as possible. When more efficient heating is available, corporations selling it will encourage customers to turn up their thermostats and run around in their underwear in the middle of winter.

People live commuting distances from work. The automobile has lengthened that distance. Fuel efficient cars will do nothing to affect that distance or the expanding miles of road, the loss of habitat that accompanies road construction, space for parking or energy used in manufacturing cars.

It is not hard to visualize yuppies feeling so smug about their EE apartment in New York that they buy an EE home in Phoenix, an EE condo in Chicago, a hybrid car for each city, and a helicopter modified to run on biofuels for shuttling between cities. Energy efficiency is not efficient when some individual items are more efficient, but the overall quantity of items increases so much that the total mass of energy used goes up instead of down. Like it or not, that is the irredeemable compulsion of market economics.

This is not to say that EE plays no role in preventing the planet from frying. It is to say that EE must be accompanied with an intense program of conservation, economic redesign and governmental regulation. Without these, EE in a market economy is not merely worthless, but will likely result in expanded production and increased global warming.

Invasion of the techno-babblers

Anyone who has ever fought an incinerator, cement kiln or coal plant knows that you’ve lost the struggle if you ever let industry suck you into an argument about which pollution control device should be tacked on after toxins have been created. The only genuine solution is the easy one — to prevent the creation of the poisons in the first place.

If someone tries to sell an incinerator or an EE system that’s too complicated to understand, that could indicate it’s a bad idea. Making things simple is typically the route of greatest efficiency.

A narrow focus on technology seeks to replace a gee-gaw with a doo-dad, and when that doesn’t work, come up with a gizmo. Techno-babble sputters forth from the belief that social problems can be solved in a quest for the ultimate gadget. Oblivious to social reasons for global warming, the ASES/Sierra report claims that whatever greenhouse gas problems remain after EE can be solved with six renewable technologies: “concentrating solar power, photovoltaics, wind power, biomass, biofuels and geothermal power.” The last three of these are techno-babble.

“Biomass” is largely an effort to turn whatever wildlands remain on this planet to energy crop monocultures. Not surprisingly, the word “ecology” does not appear in the biomass chapter. What is surprising is the subsection on “Urban residues” which discusses the use of municipal solid waste as feedstock for heat conversion to electricity. This is a polite way of saying that environmentalists should endorse spewing incinerator poisons into city air and abandon the notion of not generating waste.

“Geothermal power” does not have such offensive associations. But less than 0.1% of geothermal energy is within three kilometers of the surface, which makes it currently recoverable. Suggesting that yet-to-be-perfected techniques of recovery might allow geothermal to provide 20% of US energy is pure speculation. It cannot be part of a serious energy strategy.

One of the more shameful chapters of the report concerns “Biofuels.” It has nothing against corn ethanol. It only rejects using corn grain to produce ethanol on the basis that the 10 million gallons of ethanol which could be manufactured from US corn would represent only 5% of this country’s gasoline demand. It pays no attention to issues brought up the same month in a Scientific American article that (1) refining ethanol uses more energy than it produces, and (2) ethanol requires “robbing food crops to make fuel.” The lack of concern with either ethanol efficiency or world hunger renders the Sierra-endorsed report as less ecologically-minded than Scientific American, the prototype of techno-hype publications.

The chapter clings to the hope that ethanol could be produced if, instead of using corn grain, “residues from corn and wheat crops” made up the feedstock. There are several problems with this “cellulose” strategy. First, as with geothermal, making ethanol from cornstalks is so highly speculative that it has no place in long term projections. If it could be done, it would be from genetically engineering corn to make it more amenable to separating sugars from lignin. There has already been plenty of genetic contamination of foodstocks. Additional genetic engineering is exactly what agriculture does not need.

The biggest problem with cellulosic ethanol is that it assumes that soil should be nothing more than a sterile medium for growing crops and that “residue” has no part in replenishing soil. Just as the Forest Service under Bill Clinton brought us “salvage logging” based on the belief that decaying wood has no significance for forest ecosystems, Hillary Clinton might usher in the concept that decaying cornstalks have no contribution to soil ecosystems.

Those who fixate on biofuels don’t seem to grasp that keeping natural fertilizers out of the soil means relying more on petrochemical fertilizers. With a straight face they are proposing to reduce oil use in cars by increasing use of oil-based fertilizers.

Hard questions/Tough reality

Perpetual motion machines, biomass and biofuels will not halt species extinction caused by climate change. Again, efficiency and solar and wind power are critical components of a sustainable society. But focusing on them diverts attention from the real issues that need to be addressed — how to dramatically reduce energy production while improving the quality of life. This is the basis for the hard questions that corporate environmentalists avoid.

For example, the US needs to reduce the number of cars on the road by at least 95% and make sure the few that are manufactured are hybrids. How can the US economy be reorganized so that auto workers and refinery workers have jobs comparable to jobs that they now have?

Many poor countries depend on destructive industries such as oil. How can the world economy be reorganized so they increase their standard of living while altering what they produce?

It is well known that greenhouse gas reduction requires population reduction, which can best be accomplished by reducing the gap between rich and poor and achieving equality for women. How do we reverse the right wing pattern of increasing disparity?

The global economy is increasing production of high-energy goods such as roads, cars, airplanes, fast food, meat and endless mountains of consumer crap. How do we change this to production of low-energy goods that people actually need, such as locally grown organic food, preventive health care and clothes and homes that endure?

The creation of artificial wants for new objects is exploding like genetically engineered diseases in a bio-defense lab. How do we convince big enviro that it is not “sacrifice” or “deprivation” to focus on manufacturing items that people actually need and will last?

We all want to believe that our checks to Sierra or the Nature Conservancy do some good in the long run and that they are just a little slow to do the right thing. The tough reality is that big enviro is doing bad things that lead in the wrong direction.

The most basic task for stopping global warming is having a moral, ethical and spiritual revolution based on the belief that excessive crap is bad. Reduction of unnecessary production is the antithesis of what corporations are all about. However destructive it is for the planet, corporations must seek to convince people to consume more and more.

Enter big enviro telling people that excessive consumption is not bad at all because it gives the consumer the ability to affect change with purchasing power. The erudite techno-magician waves his wand, uttering “Don’t look at the mounds of discarded junk that go into landfills. Look over here at the fabulous eco-gadgets of our corporate friends.”

Big enviro may be doing more to preserve the ethos of self-devouring consumerism than big corporations could ever do. What a surprise to learn that the Sierra Club has a history of obtaining funds from Chemical Bank, ARCO and British Petroleum. Big enviro just may deliver to big oil what it most needs — faith that a market economy can protect the planet.

Karl Marx once said something to the effect that if there were only two capitalists left, they would compete to see which would sell the rope to hang the other one. A modern version might be that if the planet was so roasted that only two big enviro groups remained, they would compete to see which could get a grant from big oil to show that what was left of the world could be saved by consumer choices.

Don Fitz is editor of Synthesis/Regeneration: A Magazine of Green Social Thought, which is sent to members of The Greens/Green Party USA. He can be reached at fitzdon@aol.com

Sources

Heinberg, R. The party’s over. New Society Publishers, 2003.

Kutscher, C.F. (Ed.) Tackling Climate Change in the U.S.: Potential Carbon Emissions Reduction from Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy by 2030. American Solar Energy Society, 2007. www.ases.org/climate change

Monbiot, G. Heat: How to stop the planet from burning. South End Press, 2007.

Sierra Club, Renewable energy experts unveil report. Sierra club press release, January 31, 2007. Contact Josh Dorner, josh.dorner@sierraclub.org

Tainter, J. The collapse of complex societies, Cambridge University Press, 1988.

Tokar, B., Earth for Sale. South End Press, 1997.

Wald, M.L. Is ethanol for the long haul? Scientific American. January 2007.

-----------------------------------------
Attribution: http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle ... emID=12636
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Re: Consume Like There’s No Tomorrow

Unread postby aflurry » Tue 24 Apr 2007, 16:23:59

Do I get to be the first to say it? This is an excellent article. Thank you.
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Re: Consume Like There’s No Tomorrow

Unread postby Transient » Tue 24 Apr 2007, 17:07:48

Let me be the second! Great post.
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Re: Consume Like There’s No Tomorrow

Unread postby mmasters » Tue 24 Apr 2007, 17:42:09

Great post for sure.
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Methods for Reducing U.S. Consumption

Unread postby Homesteader » Sun 30 Sep 2007, 08:53:18

"I've spelled out measures for this in more than enough detail elsewhere, and this is a topic on population, so I'll not digress to get into it here. But if someone starts a topic on "consumption reduction" and states that it is about reducing consumption levels in the US in a manner ethically commensurate to reducing population levels globally, I'll be more than glad to fill up a page or two with specifics."

Quote by gg3.

Hie on McDuff.

A few personal ones. The summer thermostat setting is 85 degrees. We raise most of our meat and many of our vegetables, all our milk, some of our cheese. We turned off the furnace a couple of years ago and heat completely with wood we cut ourselves and split with wedges and a maul. I took my truck off the road (didn't sell it) and my wife and I both drive VW diesel cars (50 +- mpg.)
We garden organically, use open-pollinated seeds and save seeds. we don't use pesticides, rather we allow some failures while we have the luxury as a way to build our skill level. We would like a greenhouse to increase what we can grow in the winter (if you can call NC in January winter)

For the meat and vegetables we don't raise we buy from a local meat packing plant which also has the local vegetables. We don't mow our lawn, we let the sheep do that. Once or twice a year I go around with a weed wacker and hit the tall stuff.
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Re: Methods for Reducing U.S. Consumption

Unread postby Laughs_Last » Sun 30 Sep 2007, 09:02:47

Weed whacker? You need a scythe. And in case it rains, a cloak, too.
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Re: Methods for Reducing U.S. Consumption

Unread postby Jack » Sun 30 Sep 2007, 09:35:52

Jevon's paradox.

I appreciate all of those conservation efforts. It lets me:

Keep the thermostat at 73 in summer, and 75 in winter.

Drive 200 miles (round trip) to buy a couple pounds of my favorite brand of sausage. I get almost 20 MPG.

Drive 20 miles (round trip) to spend 30 minutes at the pistol range. It's nicely air conditioned.

Why should I - or, for that matter, anyone - voluntarily conserve? We merely transfer consumption from ourselves to someone else. Conservation may be a private virtue, but it is not a public good. Rather, it is pointless.

There are some 500 posts that mention Jevon's paradox. It is worthwhile to consider them.
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Re: Methods for Reducing U.S. Consumption

Unread postby kjmclark » Sun 30 Sep 2007, 10:25:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', '[')b]Jevon's paradox.
Why should I - or, for that matter, anyone - voluntarily conserve? We merely transfer consumption from ourselves to someone else. Conservation may be a private virtue, but it is not a public good. Rather, it is pointless.

There are some 500 posts that mention Jevon's paradox. It is worthwhile to consider them.


There are two ways to read these questions about whether we can conserve. You keep reading "voluntary" into them, but I think the much more important version is whether we can conserve because we have to. In that case, Jevon's paradox doesn't apply in the same way.

Jevon's paradox says that if one person conserves when they don't need to, that will reduce the price for others to consume more. That doesn't look like it applies in the way you're suggesting because we are in-aggregate going to be forced to consume less. In that case, one person consuming less allows someone else to consume more than they would have, but likely still less than they did before, because there's less to go around.

The important way to put it is "can we reasonably adapt to less oil availability?" Given an annual reduction in imports of from 1% to 15%, can we adapt? Reducing consumption isn't going to be optional.
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Re: Methods for Reducing U.S. Consumption

Unread postby Bas » Sun 30 Sep 2007, 11:26:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kjmclark', '
')
There are two ways to read these questions about whether we can conserve. You keep reading "voluntary" into them, but I think the much more important version is whether we can conserve because we have to. In that case, Jevon's paradox doesn't apply in the same way.

Jevon's paradox says that if one person conserves when they don't need to, that will reduce the price for others to consume more. That doesn't look like it applies in the way you're suggesting because we are in-aggregate going to be forced to consume less. In that case, one person consuming less allows someone else to consume more than they would have, but likely still less than they did before, because there's less to go around.

The important way to put it is "can we reasonably adapt to less oil availability?" Given an annual reduction in imports of from 1% to 15%, can we adapt? Reducing consumption isn't going to be optional.


exactly; while conservation is not going to stretch our supply in terms of time, it will allow, no, force us to stretch the use that we get out of a single barrel of oil.

Conservation also implies that something is scarce and therfor has value and hence it makes economic sense on an individual basis to conserve in order to save money. Jack.... You should be a politician ; )
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Re: Methods for Reducing U.S. Consumption

Unread postby Blacksmith » Sun 30 Sep 2007, 11:32:04

I'm with Jack

Eat drink and be merry for tomorrow you ____.
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Re: Methods for Reducing U.S. Consumption

Unread postby Homesteader » Sun 30 Sep 2007, 12:01:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', '[')b]Jevon's paradox.I appreciate all of those conservation efforts. It lets me: --snip-- There are some 500 posts that mention Jevon's paradox. It is worthwhile to consider them.
I'm quite familiar with Jevon's Paradox. I'm also aware of personal responsibility. I'm also aware of the game "the one with the most toys" wins. Another way to put it is "the one who consumes the most wins". I choose to not participate in this game. My life style is not pointless. It is as congruent with my spiritual beliefs as I'm able to make them at this time in my life.

Actually Jack, my lifestyle choices have nothing to do with your thermostat being at 73 in the winter and 75 in the summer. Cheers.
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Re: Methods for Reducing U.S. Consumption

Unread postby Homesteader » Sun 30 Sep 2007, 12:05:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Laughs_Last', 'W')eed whacker? You need a scythe. And in case it rains, a cloak, too.
I have a scythe and know how to use it. If you have ever tried to cut an occasional woody stem with a scythe you would know why I use a weed wacker.

Don't need a cloak, it doesn't rain in NC anymore. :-D But thanks for being concerned!
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Re: Methods for Reducing U.S. Consumption

Unread postby frankthetank » Sun 30 Sep 2007, 12:35:53

After spending a few years on this site i'm also in Jack's camp. If i save, someone else will use what i don't. We can't win. Only reason i conserve right now is to save money, but since that will become worthless (more then now) soon enough, i might as well burn through that too. Maybe i'll set the t-stat a little "hotter' this winter! Burn baby burn. Its either the oil sand guys use it or i do.

Hell, we should also have gas powered leaf blowers and monster trucks.
lawns should be outlawed.
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Re: Methods for Reducing U.S. Consumption

Unread postby Jack » Sun 30 Sep 2007, 14:03:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kjmclark', 'J')evon's paradox says that if one person conserves when they don't need to, that will reduce the price for others to consume more. That doesn't look like it applies in the way you're suggesting because we are in-aggregate going to be forced to consume less. In that case, one person consuming less allows someone else to consume more than they would have, but likely still less than they did before, because there's less to go around.


I believe we can extend the theory. If instead of "person" we substitute "nation" or "group of nations", the same effects come into play. Thus, if country A reduces consumption, more is available for countries B and C.

Price is simply an allocation mechanism. It could be monetary - it could be in terms of armored divisions.

I see no reason to leave more for B and C.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kjmclark', '
')The important way to put it is "can we reasonably adapt to less oil availability?" Given an annual reduction in imports of from 1% to 15%, can we adapt? Reducing consumption isn't going to be optional.


If T is total, and other letters (A, B, C ... Z) are national consumption, then we begin with:

T = A + B + C...+Z

If T is reduced by 15%, then we still have:

0.85 T = A + B + C... + Z (with A...Z having new values)

Suppose A is 50% of the total. We could reduce A by 0.30 and all others by zero, and the equation still balances. But it also balances with a family of other solutions. We could increase A by 0.05, and reduce the others by some greater percentage.

Simple solution - starve the weak that I may feast. 8)
Dieoff. Fun to watch. Better with hot buttered popcorn! [smilie=new_popcornsmiley.gif]
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Re: Methods for Reducing U.S. Consumption

Unread postby Jack » Sun 30 Sep 2007, 14:08:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bas', 'J')ack.... You should be a politician ; )


Sure, that would work. Until I opened my mouth and exhibited some of the moral and ethical values I embrace. At which time the voters would recoil in horror.

Just as well, I suppose. Kissing babies is NOT my forte'.
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Re: Methods for Reducing U.S. Consumption

Unread postby Jack » Sun 30 Sep 2007, 14:14:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Homesteader', 'A')ctually Jack, my lifestyle choices have nothing to do with your thermostat being at 73 in the winter and 75 in the summer.
Perhaps our choices are more entwined than you might believe. Your choices make my choices less costly and easier to maintain. And I appreciate it - thank you!

Interestingly enough, we each choose to live according to our beliefs. We just have divergent core beliefs. Amusing, isn't it? 8)
Jack
Light Sweet Crude
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