[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mindfarkk', 'i') don't know much about the zero point subject, but i do know this; the laws of thermodynamics do not apply at subatomic levels.

[mindfarkk]

i'm speaking only to the idea that a point does, in fact, exist.

i'm not refuting the 2nd law, except under sub-atomic conditions. the water droplets you mentioned are macroscopic. even if they are working with electrons and ions -- i'm talking about sub, sub, sub, sub levels of material reality, or at least theories dealing with same. the observable physical laws and mathematics describing those laws are *not* the same. that's the whole reason why string theory is making so much headway in the absence of demonstrable evidence of it's accuracy. it's the only model that reconciles the inconsistencies between the rules governing the behavior of large and small-scale systems. the 2nd law is part of the large-scale systems.

what this has to do with describing PO processes - not much. but in terms of zero-point energy, it may have relevance. especially since in string theory, points are replaced by a non-point "string" as the smallest possible unit of existence.

let me dig up my book tomorrow... the elegant universe. i'm not speedy enough with the lingo to be more specific right now.

[lowem]

Personally, I don't think we can jump to a Type 4 Civilization that quickly or easily ... what do you hink, "mastery over the resources of the known universe"? Heck, that isn't even really defined.

What ZPE claims to do is to tap into energy from another dimension or something. We have about as much chance of doing that right away as we have of opening up our own hyperspace jump gate.

Well, accidents can happen. If somebody opens a portal to hell by accident, you Doom players out there should know exactly what to do

[piqued]

Here is a link I ran across in AboveTopSecret.com:

http://www.evolvedtechnology.com/excalibur.pdf

Can anyone tell if this is a real product, or simply BS?

[MarkR]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')an anyone tell if this is a real product, or simply BS?

[haarp]

Let us suppose that zero point is true. I don't mean the theory of it as that may or may not be accurate but I am no scientist so cannot make that judgment. I mean this - let us suppose for the sake of hypothetical argument that in fact there already is zero point energy technology on this planet.

Does anyone, in their right mind, really, truly believe that if such a technology exists that the military industrial complex would allow that out into the public arena? Before you dismiss me as a conspiracy nut I would ask you to do this: at least have a quiet think about this over some time.

And after you have thought about that extrapolate those thoughts out to the whole peak oil issue. You may, perhaps, come to some surprising conclusions. I know I have in the last few months!

[mindfarkk]

ok i'm a tad slow but here is the quote i promised from the book, "the elegant universe", by brian greene.

chapter one, first paragraph:
"...There are two fundamental pillars upon which modern physics rests. One is Albert Einstein's general relativity, which provides a theoretical framework for understanding the universe on the largest of scales: stars, galaxies, clusters of galaxies, and beyond... The other is quantum mechanics, which provides a theoretical framework for understanding the universe on the smallest of scales: molecules, atoms, and all the way down to subatomic particles like electrons and quarks. Through years of research, physicists have experimentally confirmed to almost unimaginable accuracy virtually all the predictions made by each of these theories. But these same theoretical tools inexorably lead to another inescapable conclusion: As they are currently formulated, general relativity and quantum mechanics cannot both be right. The two theories... are mutually incompatible." (boldface emphasis added)

so where does the 2nd law fall between these two theoretical constructs (both of which have been proven true, but which are logically or at least mathematically incompatible as they are currently formulated)? Greene says:

"...entropy... is a quantum mechanical concept" (pp 335-336).

so it appears i got it backwards - the 2nd law of thermodynamics breaks down in a generally relative universe. one of the cases where it breaks down is in the event horizon of a black hole. this is one case where the inconsistencies between the two models becomes evident. this is roughly how it goes; because the 2nd law states that every system tends toward greater disorder (entropy), a black hole should have very large entropy, since matter tends to move from outside the black hole into its interior, thereby reducing the external entropy (disorder) and logically increasing the black-hole's entropy by increasing it's contents. yet a black hole is "one of the most ordered and organized objects in the whole universe" (p. 335). well, one of the ways black holes get back online with the second law is by emitting radiation; the very gravity that tears particles such as photons apart at the event horizon energizes half the particles and sends them back out into the universe. (p. 337) but this does not account for all the entropy supposedly encompassed by the enormous mass of the black hole, entropy which is mysteriously hidden by the black holes overpowering simplicity. there is no quantum-mechanical (microscopic) model that can explain how a black hole can be so entropic and yet so uncomplicated. these states are inconsistent. this case of inconsistency is one of the instances that string theory can fix.

and how all this relates back to the discussion at hand is <long, deep breath> that string theory means that there are no zero points.

so, in order to keep the 2nd law of thermodynamics, you have to give up the possibility of zero point.

boy, that feels anticlimactic.

[skiwi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mindfarkk', 'o')k i'm a tad slow but here is the quote i promised from the book, "the elegant universe", by brian greene.

[0mar]

I think ZPE was refered to the fact that particles can "borrow" energy equal to their creation. Upon creation, the particle and anti-particle collide to release exactly the same amount of energythat was "borrowed." IIRC, this is how Stephen Hawkings explained how black holes don't violate the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics because they can radiate a particle or an anti-particle due to non-equal gravitational forces acting on the particles.

I thot ZPE was an effort to harnass this energy. Am I thinking of the wrong idea?

[mindfarkk]

ok... my first mistake was assuming zero point meant space-time rather than temperature, and i didn't google it. this is a brand new concept to me so i'm trying to figure it out. brb (well maybe not RIGHT back)...

[jross]

Oh my, another painful thread. How many of your guys actually know what ZPE is, and it's ramifications?

Also, just so you know: QM and GR are not mutually exclusive. The problem is that you can't unify the theories the way you can unify, say, SR (special relativity) and QM -- a process which will also cover E&M (the theory of electromagnetic fields & waves).

Part of the problem is the QM and GR occupy separate domains, in a manner of thinking. QM applies primarily to the very small, while GR is more a large-picture sort of thing. You can create problems where you have atomic-scale black holes, or where you consider particle/antiparticle creation on a Swartzchild singularity (the origin of Hawking radiation, IIRC), and you have both relativistic effects and quantum effects, but by and large, there's not alot of overlap.

If folks want, I'd be more than happy to post up a good discussion of the physics behind things like ZPE, but I dont' want to waste my time on it if noone will read it. I will warn in advance: to discuss & understand the topics, a certain amount of technical knowledge and mathematical proof will be required. You can only hand-wave so much on these sorts of things.

[Aaron]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'e')specially since in string theory, points are replaced by a non-point "string" as the smallest possible unit of existence.

[cube]

Once upon a time there existed a mystical land that was quite different then ours. It was a place of great magic where it's people were blessed with free energy. This free energy was so versatile it could be used to power wonders great and small across land, sea, and air. This free energy was so powerful, a soul would have to toil for 120 hours to equal 1 gallon of this magical substance. In addition to that, skilled alchemists with great power could transform this magic substance to over 500,000 useful products. There was one caveat of course. This free energy didn't exactly fall into peoples' laps, it had to be extracted from middle earth and thus there was a small expense. But one cannot complain for incurring such an expense. Doing so would be akin to picking fruit from a tree one did not have to grow and complaining that effort had to be used to pick the fruit. Is there anyone who would have the audacity to make such a complaint!

Because this magic gift was free and plentiful, the rulers of many kingdoms would greedily place heavy duties on it (many times more then the cost to extract it). Much of a kingdom's treasury could be dependant on these duties. The livelyhood of almost every inhabitant in this mystical land depended on this free energy. With this magic gift the people of this land lived like kings. They dined on exotic foods grown from far away. They rode huge chariots the size of elephants that could travel faster then a cheetah. However this magic gift of free energy did not last forever. Eventually it was consumed and the inhabitants of this mystical land became powerless. Even the kindom's wisest shamans, soothsayers, and alchemists could do nothing. There power was impotent without this gift of free energy. The people of this mystical land eventually perished and nothing is known of them now except for what is told told in legends and myths.

[Raxozanne]

HEHEHEHEHE

[EnviroEngr]

Can somebody do me a favor and evaluate Michel's claims, calculations and physics. I'm trying to separate con-art from good science.

Thanks!

http://www.kucinich.us/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3579

[Novus]

We have another Zero Point Energy, Over Unity, Free Energy discussion going here.

http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic9186-0.html

A lot of theory behind these devices is discused here as well as historical back ground on the cosmic Tesla, Casimir, and Aether forces that power the universe.

The mods should merge the threads and sticky it as the Mother of all free energy threads.

[aldente]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Hydro', 'I')'m actually quite amazed that nobody has mentioned free energy in this forum.

[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Hydro', 'H')i, I've posted a few times before, and decided to bring up an overlooked issue

I'm actually quite amazed that nobody has mentioned free energy in this forum.
............

[small_steps]

The ultracap appers to based in the realities of physics.

mikhail's site gives me very little interest - sorry EE

When someone says something about a magnetic motor, challenge them to show you a non-magnetic (electrical) motor, that is not a diesel or that type of motor. What they might be able to come up with would fit in their hand. The only time I have seen seen magnets used on both sides of the airgap (aside from dual rotor machines - and these airgaps are seperated by the stator) is when used for clutches (recent paper by Canova and Vusini). The people who claim these "perpetual" or whatever they call these pm machines should include the magnet specs, i.e. the type and grade, and something about the magnetic circuit, it might have a chance at being believable. And do they ever talk about the losses inside the magnet, that is the space and time harmonic losses, or the losses due to slotting - these encompass eddy current losses, and then there are hysteresis losses as well... Z. Q. Zhu has some very nice work on magnets and their properties, if you're so inclined, you might be able to find a bit on the net. Yes, it is quite complex, but it isn't misunderstood by those who design these machines for an honest living.

good luck, and take care

[Z]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Chichis', 'F')rom an evolutionary standpoint, isn't the whole point to survive?