A crucial question about the more or less imminent post-collapse society will be its dominant ideology and value system.
Since the 1960's, liberal social values have continued their triumph in nearly all Western societies. Think feminism, open homosexuality, individualist lifestyle choices, free sex, liberal secularism and the general "let all the flowers blossom" attitude. Of course there has been some reactionary backlash (in the form of social conservatism), but its successes have been mostly limited in scale and endurance.
In my opinion, it's no coincidence that all this individualism and pluralization has happened during an age of an unforeseen economic and technological progress. Not only has technology and the ensuing prosperity freed people from constant worry about daily bread, they have also given them possibilites to enjoy and express themselves in ways unimaginable a hundred years ago. They have substantially increased tolerance for lifestyles and behavior that would have been considered illegitimate in more austere times. This correlation between welfare and tolerance is mirrored by the fact that poor and undeveloped societies are usually very conservative and patriarchal in their values and practices.
The question is, what will happen to the modern liberal individualist value system when its economic and technological basis collapses?
My guess is that in a time of desperation, famine and anarchy, people will cling to any available ideology or religion that gives them security and hope for the future. This in itself may strengthen conservative social views.
But individual comfort will not be enough. As has been stated many times, survival in the post-PO world will call for very close and permanent cooperation. What we will see - if we are to see anything - is probably some kind of neo-feodal society, consisting of close-knit rural communities and a new regional power structure needed for supra-community level administration, justice, defence etc.
In this new social paradigm, the natural change in values and attitudes will be for the conservative and reactionary. After political, economic and social turmoil that has turned their world upside down, people will desperately yearn for authority, coherence and continuity. Individualism will wane as the rights of an individual to exist outside community cooperation and unsubjugated to community rules are increasingly questioned. Sexual self-expression will probably be much more regulated. With physical stength as an essential factor in post-fossil-fueled work, and the modern school system gone, traditional gender roles may be reinvigorated. The family, both nuclear and extended, becomes crucial again. And so on...
Do you think this kind of progress is to be expected?
PeakOil is You
Values in a post-PO society
Values in a post-PO society
by Fredrik » Thu 08 Mar 2007, 07:38:43
Last edited by Fredrik on Mon 09 Apr 2007, 06:43:03, edited 1 time in total.
"Only scarcity and effort make life worth living."
"A fundamental, devastating error is to set up a political system based on [individual] desires." -Pentti Linkola
"A fundamental, devastating error is to set up a political system based on [individual] desires." -Pentti Linkola
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Fredrik - Lignite
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Re: Values in a post-PO society
by undertaker » Thu 08 Mar 2007, 09:51:20
Yep, and frankly I can't wait.
I really look forward to seeing Marxist professors on the street with sandwich boards:
"Will deconstruct Western civilization for food."
"Stop being a sexist racist homophobic patriarch and give me a potato!"
"It's all the fault of dead white males, so give me some alms!"
I really look forward to seeing Marxist professors on the street with sandwich boards:
"Will deconstruct Western civilization for food."
"Stop being a sexist racist homophobic patriarch and give me a potato!"
"It's all the fault of dead white males, so give me some alms!"
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undertaker - Permanently Banned
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Re: Values in a post-PO society
by killJOY » Thu 08 Mar 2007, 10:12:37
Will it be this:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')eeing the crowds, he said to his disciples, "How fortunate are the poor; they have God's kingdom. How fortunate the hungry; they will be fed. How fortunate are those who are crying; they will laugh."
"I am telling you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone slaps you on the cheek, offer your other cheek as well. If anyone grabs your coat, let him have your shirt as well. Give to anyone who asks, and if anyone takes away your belongings, do not ask to have them back. As you want people to treat you, do the same to them."
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')eeing the crowds, he said to his disciples, "How fortunate are the poor; they have God's kingdom. How fortunate the hungry; they will be fed. How fortunate are those who are crying; they will laugh."
"I am telling you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone slaps you on the cheek, offer your other cheek as well. If anyone grabs your coat, let him have your shirt as well. Give to anyone who asks, and if anyone takes away your belongings, do not ask to have them back. As you want people to treat you, do the same to them."
Or this:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '9'):16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
9:17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
9:18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
Batten down the hatches.
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killJOY - Intermediate Crude
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Re: Values in a post-PO society
by MacG » Thu 08 Mar 2007, 10:16:41
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Fredrik', 'D')o you think this kind of progress is to be expected?
For parts of society at least, it sound plausible. But dont forget all the groups who used to hang on at the edges of former rigid societies: Traveling entertainers, sailors and semi-nomadic craftsmen and all such.
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Re: Values in a post-PO society
by Baldwin » Thu 08 Mar 2007, 17:52:44
We will see an upswing in family and religious values.
Individualism and secularism are directly proportional to material success of society.
Individualism and secularism are directly proportional to material success of society.
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Baldwin - Coal
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Re: Values in a post-PO society
by benzoil » Thu 08 Mar 2007, 19:49:00
Does a social/economic/political crisis create a more conservative society? That's a great question, but I might have to disagree that this is a given. For one thing, a slow slide will produce very different adjustments than a quick collapse. For another, the hands of time rarely turn back.
For instance, given the geographic separation of many families these days, we might not see a return to the multi-generational household as a way to conserve wealth/energy/food. We might see more multi-family households or groups of thirtysomethings who collectively (loaded word!) own a small farm. Or neighborhoods that pool their resources to heat one house in the winter.
In times of economic stress, the average marriage age and birthrate both decline. If birth control or condoms are still available what would be the point of more conservative sexual mores?
There's no doubt in my mind that old fashioned values like hard work, self-reliance and respect for your community will return. Also, many people will return to religion for guidance. I don't think its automatic that they will be expressed in the same ways as they were in previous generations.
Case in point: After the plague had ravaged Europe, the old feudal system started to crack. The countryside was littered with bandits. People didn't reinvest power in their feudal lords, they left for the growing cities. The result was a weakening of traditional feudal system and the growing secular power of trade and the Guilds. (That's the shortest recap ever of the Renaissance, but it can't be helped!)
Even a return to religion might not produce conservative-style religion. It might be the progressive "help thy neighbor/fight injustice" religion that was at the core of the civil rights movement, or that inspired many of the social reformers of the early 20th Century. Maybe people who've been away from church for awhile end up coming back to it as Unitarians or Pagans or something.
In the end, people will adapt as best as possible using whatever philosophies work. Since no one is starting from scratch, that adaptation will probably infuse many elements that make sense from either a liberal or conservative viewpoint.
For instance, given the geographic separation of many families these days, we might not see a return to the multi-generational household as a way to conserve wealth/energy/food. We might see more multi-family households or groups of thirtysomethings who collectively (loaded word!) own a small farm. Or neighborhoods that pool their resources to heat one house in the winter.
In times of economic stress, the average marriage age and birthrate both decline. If birth control or condoms are still available what would be the point of more conservative sexual mores?
There's no doubt in my mind that old fashioned values like hard work, self-reliance and respect for your community will return. Also, many people will return to religion for guidance. I don't think its automatic that they will be expressed in the same ways as they were in previous generations.
Case in point: After the plague had ravaged Europe, the old feudal system started to crack. The countryside was littered with bandits. People didn't reinvest power in their feudal lords, they left for the growing cities. The result was a weakening of traditional feudal system and the growing secular power of trade and the Guilds. (That's the shortest recap ever of the Renaissance, but it can't be helped!)
Even a return to religion might not produce conservative-style religion. It might be the progressive "help thy neighbor/fight injustice" religion that was at the core of the civil rights movement, or that inspired many of the social reformers of the early 20th Century. Maybe people who've been away from church for awhile end up coming back to it as Unitarians or Pagans or something.
In the end, people will adapt as best as possible using whatever philosophies work. Since no one is starting from scratch, that adaptation will probably infuse many elements that make sense from either a liberal or conservative viewpoint.
TANSTAAFL
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benzoil - Coal
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Re: Values in a post-PO society
by Fredrik » Fri 09 Mar 2007, 08:15:30
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('benzoil', 'F')or instance, given the geographic separation of many families these days, we might not see a return to the multi-generational household as a way to conserve wealth/energy/food. We might see more multi-family households or groups of thirtysomethings who collectively (loaded word!) own a small farm. Or neighborhoods that pool their resources to heat one house in the winter.
True, but after settling down, those communities and neighborhoods will probably have a more family-centered structure as new generations arise.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('benzoil', 'I')n times of economic stress, the average marriage age and birthrate both decline. If birth control or condoms are still available what would be the point of more conservative sexual mores?
I wouldn't bet on modern birth control methods to be available in a post-peak situation (so it's calendar watching and the sheep bowel sheath!). Also, people will make more children because there might not be anyone else you could trust to support you later when you're too old to work.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('benzoil', 'C')ase in point: After the plague had ravaged Europe, the old feudal system started to crack. The countryside was littered with bandits. People didn't reinvest power in their feudal lords, they left for the growing cities. The result was a weakening of traditional feudal system and the growing secular power of trade and the Guilds. (That's the shortest recap ever of the Renaissance, but it can't be helped!)
That's an interesting point, and one day we might see something similar in those countries and regions that succeed in recovering from the collapse.
But for the next decades, I was thinking more about the fall of Rome, which resulted in massive impoverishment, ruralization, loss of technical and cultural knowledge, new regional power structures and a patriarchally ruled religious system. The case of Rome might be very interesting for us now; I've read somewhere that the main cause for the collapse was the depletion of resources (productive agricultural lands and forests), with numerous secondary causes that also may have analogies today.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('benzoil', 'E')ven a return to religion might not produce conservative-style religion. It might be the progressive "help thy neighbor/fight injustice" religion that was at the core of the civil rights movement, or that inspired many of the social reformers of the early 20th Century.
A traditional theology and social engagement need not be mutually exclusive. The early church was mostly a movement of the lower classes and exhorted rich people to charity while stubbornly maintaining the confession.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('benzoil', 'M')aybe people who've been away from church for awhile end up coming back to it as Unitarians or Pagans or something.
