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Neat little video about the monetary system

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Re: Neat little video about the monetary system

Unread postby mmasters » Sat 24 Feb 2007, 20:21:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', 'I') have addressed your points, but they were found wanting. No, I have not looked at any videos. I could not. I have finally downloaded Money Masters, but have not looked at it to the end. My evenings and weekends are spent lifting weights, running, swimming, cycling, playing tennis, drinking with buddies, getting laid and not obsessing with peak oil dot com. In short, I have a life.

Oh yah, I am in on it! ; - ) My very small company with 2-traders and 13-back office people have made one billion dollars in the past two years. Don't believe me? I will email you our audited financial statements. But first when 2006 is approved in March/April. I am not keeping track, but that puts me ahead of the Hunts or Jim Rogers nevermind the GSCI. To be honest it is sometimes about being in the right place at the right time. But I have some skin in the game. I am not on the sidelines jerking-off. You said you worked for some investment banks? Well, they work for me! HAHA!

Whatever.
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Re: Neat little video about the monetary system

Unread postby MrBill » Sat 24 Feb 2007, 20:38:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')ou also have stated that our debt-based money system is not dependent upon economic growth.

That is utter nonsense.


EDITED:

I think, quite accurately, I posted that debt-based aquistions at the wrong prices could result in financial losses. I did state that the system demanded profits. Not debt. A subtle but important distinction.

MMASTERS you say, "whatever". I am disappointed. I thought you might challenge me at least to prove something. I mean you of all people worked on Wall Street AND for some of the biggest investmant banks. Plus you saw how rotten the system was. Now I offer to proof that I am a scum bag banker and will email you my audited financials, and your response is, "whatever"? What, should I write a book or make a video? ; - )
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Re: Neat little video about the monetary system

Unread postby mmasters » Sat 24 Feb 2007, 21:11:12

What's there to say or prove that I haven't already? I've discussed the subject in depth, responded to your points and have recieved little in return. I'd rather debate facts and have a discussion based on substance then resort to all this dick waving bravado.
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Re: Neat little video about the monetary system

Unread postby MonteQuest » Sat 24 Feb 2007, 21:15:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')ou also have stated that our debt-based money system is not dependent upon economic growth.

That is utter nonsense.


EDITED:

I think, quite accurately, I posted that debt-based aquistions at the wrong prices could result in financial losses. I did state that the system demanded profits. Not debt. A subtle but important distinction.


And profits only come from growth in a capitalistic system. From my book, Madmen at the Helm:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'E')conomics 101—Capitalism must have growth and change in order to operate. The engine of capitalism is driven by wealthy investors who put their money into the economy in order to increase their wealth. If the economy offers no growth opportunities, then investors withdraw their money and the whole system collapses. A minor collapse is called a recession, and a major collapse is called a depression. Propaganda myth tells us that capitalism and free enterprise are one and the same thing. They are not. Under free enterprise a business can provide a service or product, make a profit in the process, and continue on stably for many years. Under capitalism such a business would be considered a failure—it does not provide a growth opportunity for an investor. Under capitalism, society is forced to continually destroy old ways of doing things and adopt new ways—not because it is good for society but because that is how wealthy investors can increase their wealth still further.
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Re: Neat little video about the monetary system

Unread postby MrBill » Sat 24 Feb 2007, 21:23:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mmasters', 'W')hat's there to say or prove that I haven't already? I've discussed the subject in depth, responded to your points and have recieved little in return. I'd rather debate facts and have a discussion based on substance then resort to all this dick waving bravado.


In depth? You have told me I am wrong, but you have not proved me wrong or that you are right?

I am right. You are wrong. Almost everyone here is wrong. I am almost the only one right, but I thank a few in the minority for pointing out the accounting nonsense of accounting for assets without liabilities!

The minority is the best place to be. Just like peak oil proponents arguing against the masses that refuse to believe it is true.

What can I say more? You're wrong!

Whatever? ; - ))
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Re: Neat little video about the monetary system

Unread postby MrBill » Sat 24 Feb 2007, 21:46:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')ou also have stated that our debt-based money system is not dependent upon economic growth.

That is utter nonsense.


EDITED:

I think, quite accurately, I posted that debt-based aquistions at the wrong prices could result in financial losses. I did state that the system demanded profits. Not debt. A subtle but important distinction.


And profits only come from growth in a capitalistic system. From my book, Madmen at the Helm:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'E')conomics 101—Capitalism must have growth and change in order to operate. The engine of capitalism is driven by wealthy investors who put their money into the economy in order to increase their wealth. If the economy offers no growth opportunities, then investors withdraw their money and the whole system collapses. A minor collapse is called a recession, and a major collapse is called a depression. Propaganda myth tells us that capitalism and free enterprise are one and the same thing. They are not. Under free enterprise a business can provide a service or product, make a profit in the process, and continue on stably for many years. Under capitalism such a business would be considered a failure—it does not provide a growth opportunity for an investor. Under capitalism, society is forced to continually destroy old ways of doing things and adopt new ways—not because it is good for society but because that is how wealthy investors can increase their wealth still further.



Wow, I almost tried to read that from start to finish, but it was so boring I gave up! Yawn!

I can quote you the book of Genesis, but it does not mean that anything in that book of the Bible actually happened or happened as it is described in the most recent version of our Bible that is not even written in Hebrew not to mention Old Syrian. It certainly does not prove that God exists. At least not for many of the world's population who believe in another God or Allah.

If you send me your book, I will be quite happy to correct any errors you have made. Profits made by companies, or indeed by individuals, are the only source of revenue that pay for wealth transfers and social payments for those less fortunate.

As I said earlier, the future does not exist, except in the abstract! No assets have a future value except as expressed as their future value of income streams discounted back to their present value.

That means that crude oil trapped in the ground has no value. Exactly, it has a negative value given the cost to explore for it and decide it has no value to extract.

I think many peak oil dot com posters would recognize that as EROEI. I just want to say it applies to other economic sheet, too.

But really seriously!!! Try to run your imaginary economy with growth, but no profits. Debt, but no profits. Well, I guess you're bankrupt eventually. Just like the Soviets or the Chinese who learned to embrace market policies.

Okay, okay, I admit, per your posts before, they (whomever) have NOT captured their true costs, like CO2 emissions, but is that a failure of the market or a political decision with economical consequences?
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Re: Neat little video about the monetary system

Unread postby MonteQuest » Sat 24 Feb 2007, 22:01:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', ' ') Try to run your imaginary economy with growth, but no profits. Debt, but no profits. Well, I guess you're bankrupt eventually.


So, one can have profits with no growth?
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Re: Neat little video about the monetary system

Unread postby vision-master » Sat 24 Feb 2007, 22:13:49

I never did trust bankers...........

Take your loans and shove it!
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Re: Neat little video about the monetary system

Unread postby mmasters » Sun 25 Feb 2007, 02:58:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', '
')In depth? You have told me I am wrong, but you have not proved me wrong or that you are right?

Heh now does it really matter if I have or not? You'll never admit to being wrong on this.

You're too dense or a plant.
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Re: Neat little video about the monetary system

Unread postby MrBill » Sun 25 Feb 2007, 03:39:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', ' ') Try to run your imaginary economy with growth, but no profits. Debt, but no profits. Well, I guess you're bankrupt eventually.


So, one can have profits with no growth?


Of course! But first of all are we talking about the individual? The country? Or the planet?

Secondly, where are the inputs coming from?

Sustainable logging, which I am sure you are familiar with, is based on the concept of total allowable cut. Harvesting any given area divided by the medium age of the trees can be maintained indefinitely. Germany has been doing this for centuries.

It is a profit without growth. New forest growth, but not an expanding land base or more trees per hectare. But in any case as I am too dense and ‘a plant’ myself what is the point?

The moment is past. Reflect on the fact that you COULD have helped make peak oil dot com THE resource on the Internet for one of the most important problems of our time. The most important one. Instead you're trying to score points by playing to the audience. Well, good luck with that!
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Re: Neat little video about the monetary system

Unread postby MonteQuest » Sun 25 Feb 2007, 12:26:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', ' ') Try to run your imaginary economy with growth, but no profits. Debt, but no profits. Well, I guess you're bankrupt eventually.


So, one can have profits with no growth?


Of course!


In a free market, but not in a capitalistic one as my Economics 101 pointed out. But our system doesn't settle for that. Loans are made to expand the economy, to make even more money. Our money system is set up to facilitate infinfite exponential growth in a finite world...which is unsustainable.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he moment is past. Reflect on the fact that you COULD have helped make peak oil dot com THE resource on the Internet for one of the most important problems of our time. The most important one. Instead you're trying to score points by playing to the audience. Well, good luck with that!


Utter nonsense. I play to no one.

So, your bottom line is that this video, the FED's publicly stated policy, and all the Fractional Reserve info out there is wrong and you are right?

Good luck with that.
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Re: Neat little video about the monetary system

Unread postby NEOPO » Sun 25 Feb 2007, 13:03:21

Mr Bill sir - could you work up a quick Grant for me and my eco village comrades please?
Maybe $100,000 would suffice... or if you really feel like "giving" then perhaps $500,000 or $1,000,000 would make you feel much better :-D

We would give your firm honorable mention in all of our printings and send pictures that you could place in your investment advertisements so you could seem like someone who cares about the energy crisis and the environment :o

Ok ok..... give us a cool million and we will even save a place for your sorry ass post peak :-D

This post was meant as a joke yet now it really has me thinking.....
See ya!! world to save!!!
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Re: Neat little video about the monetary system

Unread postby MrBill » Mon 26 Feb 2007, 06:09:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'U')tter nonsense. I play to no one.

So, your bottom line is that this video, the FED's publicly stated policy, and all the Fractional Reserve info out there is wrong and you are right?

Good luck with that.


Well, yes. If you cannot read and comprehend what it is that you are reading correctly then, yes, I am right. But you do not have to believe me. Ask TGMG himself. I do not agree with everything he says, but at least he clever enough to know where to look for the sources of his information. Even if he concludes that it is a dispicable, deplorable act of treason on their part.

I cannot copy & paste his comments here. But just read the first 6-paragraphs. He clearly understands that money is created when the Fed lends money to banks.

Willing Supidity - Total Fed credit up $5.7 billion

But I am no longer interested in trying to educate anyone here. I have made my arguments in painstaking details. Either you get them or not. Have a nice life.
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Re: Neat little video about the monetary system

Unread postby mmasters » Mon 26 Feb 2007, 13:45:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', 'A')sk TGMG himself. I do not agree with everything he says, but at least he clever enough to know where to look for the sources of his information. Even if he concludes that it is a dispicable, deplorable act of treason on their part.

I cannot copy & paste his comments here. But just read the first 6-paragraphs. He clearly understands that money is created when the Fed lends money to banks.

Willing Supidity - Total Fed credit up $5.7 billion


Oookay then, what must he be referring to in this installment?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrMogambo', 'L')iquidity Serves Bulls And Creditors Well
But even so, this is one hell of a lot of money being created! I mean, jeez, the $6.2 billion in increased Total Fed Credit last week alone, when translated through the reserve multiplier inherent in fractional reserve banking, means an almost infinite multiplication of that credit into an amount of credit available at the banks! The banks can now loan out lots and lots of, essentially, free money!

http://prudentinvestor.blogspot.com/2005/12/mogambo-guru-reinforces-his-bunker.html


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', 'I') am no longer interested in trying to educate anyone here.

Perhaps you should educate yourself before trying to educate others.
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Re: Neat little video about the monetary system

Unread postby MrBill » Mon 26 Feb 2007, 15:16:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')erhaps you should educate yourself before trying to educate others.



Exactly, thank you. I should just concentrate on my own business. To Hell with everything else! That is good advice. As peak oil dot com spirals-off into irrelavence full of its angry ranters. That was sure the business plan behind its creators. Well, as Monte would say, good luck with that! ; - )
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Re: Neat little video about the monetary system

Unread postby CrudeAwakening » Mon 26 Feb 2007, 17:28:04

Hmmm, can we reconcile our differences of our opinion?

Can we agree that the central bank is the ultimate creator of money, without which the FRBs would be unable to expand the money supply further via the multiplier effect?

Can we also agree that FRBs do create money (admittedly not high-powered money, but bank credit which functions as money), but only in response to actions by the central bank?

These are pretty fundamental points, surely we can agree on them?
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Re: Neat little video about the monetary system

Unread postby mmasters » Mon 26 Feb 2007, 19:06:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('CrudeAwakening', 'H')mmm, can we reconcile our differences of our opinion?

Can we agree that the central bank is the ultimate creator of money, without which the FRBs would be unable to expand the money supply further via the multiplier effect?

Can we also agree that FRBs do create money (admittedly not high-powered money, but bank credit which functions as money), but only in response to actions by the central bank?

These are pretty fundamental points, surely we can agree on them?

The jist of what you're saying is correct, though a few noteworthy points.

It's the commercial banks that expand the money, not the Federal Reserve Banks (though I think you might have mean't that).

Also the commercial banks don't exactly create money in response to the central bank, rather the commercial banks create credit triggered off the action of someone taking out a loan. The central bank controls the "availability" of new money and the people decide whether to accept it.

It's kind of like that movie the Wishmaster, you have to make a wish before the Wishmaster can screw you. :twisted:

Furthermore, the fed can pump all kinds of newly created money into the system but if the people simply say "no" to taking on anymore loans this WILL cause a contraction in the money supply. And since the economy is dependant on the money supply this will result in a recession or potentially a depression.

This could be a guess as to why Greenspan has said there may be a recession this year. Predicting whether people will continue to take on more and more debt is not an exact science.
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Re: Neat little video about the monetary system

Unread postby CrudeAwakening » Mon 26 Feb 2007, 19:52:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mmasters', '
')
It's the commercial banks that expand the money, not the Federal Reserve Banks (though I think you might have mean't that).

Yeah, sorry, my "F" stood for "fractional", not "federal".

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')lso the commercial banks don't exactly create money in response to the central bank, rather the commercial banks create credit triggered off the action of someone taking out a loan. The central bank controls the "availability" of new money and the people decide whether to accept it.

Good point. I didn't express myself very well. What I meant was that commercial banks require reserves from the central bank on which they can base credit expansion (to the extent that a reserve requirement exists, anyway)
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Re: Neat little video about the monetary system

Unread postby firestarter » Mon 26 Feb 2007, 20:55:16

Relevant thoughts on the topic from Mish today:


Mike Shedlock


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')ut of Control
This post attempt to assess what powers the fed has to control inflation, deflation, and economic growth. The key word in that sentence is "control". Let's take a look at where we are today.

The Fed is only in control (using the word loosely as we shall see in a moment) of base money supply, reserve requirements, and short term interest rates. Even then the fed can not target money supply and interest rates at the same time. The Fed can target reserve requirements and either money supply or interest rates (but not both). Yet the myth persists that "the Fed is Pumping M3", that Fed has the power to "drop money out of helicopters" and as one person actually proposed "add zeros to everyone's account" to prevent deflation.

In practice, the Fed would not add money to people's accounts or drop money out of helicopters even IF the Fed could do it. The Fed would not do such things because it would destroy banks and creditors (their own cartel) to bail out consumers......
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