[TheDude]

I'm reading The Fall of Rome and the End of Civilisation by Bryan Ward-Perkins, which debunks the theory (popular in the last few decades) that the "Fall of Rome" was a sort of gradual transition, with relatively peaceful integration of the various invading Goths, Huns, Vandals. Hmm, all of those terms are perjoratives in modern usage...
Anyway, I keep thinking about where invaders would come from in North America. Here in the Willamette Valley, would we be overrun with Idahoans? We're already being invaded by Californians. What kind of divisions between people would manifest themselves over time? Such as the Rhine dividing the French and Germans. Would the Columbia River create a similiar division between Oregon and Washington?
Suggested purely as an entertaining thought excercise.

[PenultimateManStanding]

OK, the new barbarians at the gate are the children. They will go ballistic when they see the world collapsing for lack of energy. If you are armed and ready, be prepared to fire on 13 year olds.

[Loki]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TheDude', 'A')nyway, I keep thinking about where invaders would come from in North America.

[Loki]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he current migration of Mexicans and Central Americans to the United States is one of the largest diasporas in modern history, experts say.

Roughly 10 percent of Mexico's population of about 107 million is now living in the United States, estimates show. About 15 percent of Mexico's labor force is working in the United States. One in every 7 Mexican workers migrates to the United States.

Mass migration from Mexico began more than a century ago. It is deeply embedded in the history, culture and economies of both nations. The current wave began with Mexico's economic crisis in 1982, accelerated sharply in the 1990s with the U.S. economic boom, and today has reached record dimensions.

San Francisco Chronicle

[Daculling]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', 'G')ee, I don't know. Could it possibly be Mexico?

[Daculling]

Question directed to anyone with the know. Did the Romans intend to restrict movement of (ethnic) peoples or try to dominate (ethnic) peoples with their culture?

These are two different strategies... none of which are employed currently by western governments.

[Loki]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Daculling', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', 'G')ee, I don't know. Could it possibly be Mexico?

[gg3]

Let's not forget the criminal gangs that are already in our midst, and that represent every conceivable ethnicity & nationality. And not just in the urban areas: very often in the rural areas as well. And very often fueled by the meth trade. And very often quite well armed.

My advice: Support the lawful order with all you've got. When public funding gets tight and services are being cut to the bone, volunteer to wash police cars or sweep up at the county courthouse or bring fresh vegetables to inmates at the county lockup. When it gets even tighter, host bake sales to keep the county judge on the job, and organize neighborhood watches. As long as the framework of criminal and civil justice holds, there will be a way to keep the barbarians in check. But if that framework breaks, it's a long fast trip to the bottom and you do not want to go there.

[I_Like_Plants]

There's already a sort of loose neighborhood watch forming on my street in response to the new neighbors I got about a month ago.....

I have on my shopping list a good gun, if we get a real disaster like earthquake etc the police are going to be spread thin and shooting my neighbors will be a move commended by the whole neighborhood - and the cops!

[max_power29]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gg3', '
')My advice: Support the lawful order with all you've got. When public funding gets tight and services are being cut to the bone, volunteer to wash police cars or sweep up at the county courthouse or bring fresh vegetables to inmates at the county lockup. When it gets even tighter, host bake sales to keep the county judge on the job, and organize neighborhood watches. As long as the framework of criminal and civil justice holds, there will be a way to keep the barbarians in check. But if that framework breaks, it's a long fast trip to the bottom and you do not want to go there.

[katkinkate]

I think, in the future, both Canada, USA and Australia are likely to get a Chinese invasion. Either when the environmental degradation in China gets too much for them to support their own population, or when the western economy crashes opening the way for a migration.

[max_power29]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('katkinkate', 'I') think, in the future, both Canada, USA and Australia are likely to get a Chinese invasion. Either when the environmental degradation in China gets too much for them to support their own population, or when the western economy crashes opening the way for a migration.

[FourOfSwords]

TheDude, this is an interesting thread. Although ' suggested purely as an entertaining thought exercise' , it is important to discuss on some level, as a loose generalization of what the USA faces today, and likely on into the near future.
Although I have not read the particular book you are reading now, I am fairly well read on this subject. Although from here on in all we can discuss here are loose generalizations and comparisons.
My understanding is that most of the 'fall' was gradual with the Empire becoming more Germanized over the centuries, with the
exception of the barbarian tribes you mentioned, who initially did not integrate well at all, and the Huns(who were not Germanic), who were there not to integrate at all!( modern parallels to be draw about your 'friends' south of the border).
Before we go on, I really want to state that we should be careful
to try not to cross the line from cogent dialogue into xenophobia and racism. There are I assume, a few individuals here on this forum that are from ancestry that we may be discussing, and just out of common courtesy we should be aware that our musing here may offend.
The kind of divisions between people likely will not form along river lines, or geographical area's, but more along lines of urban/rural settings. We see this now as a process that has been going on for decades, where new immigrants especially those from the south migrate to large urban areas. So too with the barbarians in Roman times. People go where the money is, and a living can be made.
Athough for one part of the US's southern border the Rio Grande river would provide a brrier(if properly manned) that the Romans tried to provide with their 'Limes'
Loki, you are right of course. South of the border, is where the new 'barbarians are massing. And you only win a prize if you can convince America that this is a real threat that is shattering and morphing it's culture. You win the grand prize if you can convince the powers that be to acknowledge this, and effectively stop it. Of course we know this will never happen. Without the converging crises of ecological collapse and peak oil, America is already an empire in steep decline(can be friendly debated on another thread if someone wishes)
Daculling, really good questions, and relevant to America today. I feel that early on in the Roman Empire, certain Emperors and their beaurocrats, and provincial governors who were 'in line' with official policy did try to restrict ethnic movement. This would have been done in the border provinces. Keep in mind though, that their borders were to a large extent militarized. In the interior provinces there was less of a need. Later on as barbarian peoples pressed far more firmly on this 'crustal defensive line'(the 'limes') it was realized that restriction, or even deflection of these migrations was unlikely to suceed to any great extent.
Coupled with this was a severe (and sometimes only local ) depopulation of the empire due to various reasons, but mainly to constant losses in the almost endless wars that plagued the later empire, coupled with some really nasty plagues that swept through at various times. So how is this relevant to America, and her declining empire? Similar, but not identical problems. We are seeing(I believe) the beginning of what may be a series of endless wars coming up. America's population is not being decimated by these wars, but since there is as yet no enforced draft, the effect is the same for this empires army. Oh, and as an interesting side note the US is starting to do what the Middle to Late Roman Empire army did...recruiting foreign nations into the amy to fight it's wars. The Romans were experts at this. It started out as hiring into the army individuals from Germanic and other tribes, and snowballed into hiring whole tribes then whole nations/peoples to fight, with a promise of citizenship after service. The US is doing the same today, with a promise of 'fast track' citizenship. people should be woried about this.
As to trying to dominate other peoples with their culture Daculling, the Romans were experts at this. Offering the 'Pax Romana' and ctizenship were standard operating procedure. So too with the US. Today is offered the 'Pax Americana', iPods, Big Mac's and slammed down Honda's etc. It's been done for decades, and except for a small percentage of the population no one is aware of it.
Katkinkate, I feel you are spot on when you mention the Asian migration tidal wave that is hitting North America's shores. It started shortly after WWII and has grown into quite a surge recently. The powers that be are aware of this and actively promote it. Most if not all Western nations that are highly indusrialized are experiencing a population shrikage or a best a net zero loss. If you are a consumer/capitalist driven nation your economy must continually grow or it with sputter, slow down, and eventually collapse. This is well known. Well known by the govt, well known by big business/multinational corporations(whose allegience is to no country, people, or Empire).
As for barbarian invasions, well, its happen, its here for those who take time from their lives to look up and ponder important matters.
I might suggest for those who are interested to obviously read Gibbon's Decline and Fall if you have not already. The parallels with the Roman Empire are there, they are just of a different scope and magnatude.
It gives one thought to ponder.
A.

[Baldwin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') might suggest for those who are interested to obviously read Gibbon's Decline and Fall if you have not already. The parallels with the Roman Empire are there, they are just of a different scope and magnatude.

[AWPrime]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('I_Like_Plants', 'T')here's already a sort of loose neighborhood watch forming on my street in response to the new neighbors I got about a month ago.....

I have on my shopping list a good gun, if we get a real disaster like earthquake etc the police are going to be spread thin and shooting my neighbors will be a move commended by the whole neighborhood - and the cops!

[Baldwin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('max_power29', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gg3', '
')My advice: Support the lawful order with all you've got. When public funding gets tight and services are being cut to the bone, volunteer to wash police cars or sweep up at the county courthouse or bring fresh vegetables to inmates at the county lockup. When it gets even tighter, host bake sales to keep the county judge on the job, and organize neighborhood watches. As long as the framework of criminal and civil justice holds, there will be a way to keep the barbarians in check. But if that framework breaks, it's a long fast trip to the bottom and you do not want to go there.

[TheDude]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', 'E')ver been to Hillsburrito?

[smiley]

I have to admit that I haven't read the book by Bryan Ward-Perkins yet. But glancing over the contents of his book I get the impression that he is a proponent of a certain view which I don't share.

The problem is that when you rely on too many Roman sources you get a certain impression of the roman empire and of those 'barbarians'. One which is not necessarily correct.

I mean suppose that you would dig up the combined Hollywood archives in 2000 years. How realistic would your view be about present day America be? How much correct historical information would you be able to extract from films like The Patriot, Once upon a time in the West, Pearl Harbor, or worse, say would try to understand America's role in the Afghan conflict by watching Rambo III.

The Roman empire was vast and extremely powerful. It was also very paranoid, extremely conservative, brutal and abusive.

Roman sources like De Bello Gallico will tell you that the romans went to submit the barbarians (a term which referred to all non Latin speakers, including the technologically advanced Greec and Persians) to bring them civilization. The reality is that they stripped the countries of all their recourses, destroyed their cultural treasures and enslaved their population.

The Romans also were not too big into science unless it could be brought to military purposes. In fact science was seen as a threat to their military superiority, especially when it was practiced in the outer regions. No wonder Archimedes was killed by the Romans.

In a lot of literature (I don't know if this is one of them) the barbarians are portrayed as an ignorant, inferior and culturally backward bunch, who didn't want to become civilized and for some odd reason (envy) set out to destroy the roman empire.

In fact they might well have been relatively advanced people who saw their chance to get rid of the big bully and collectively set out to do so.

And there there are a lot of parallels to draw with the present day.

[I_Like_Plants]

Barbarians lol!!

Let's see, "mexicans", tend to live in coherent families, Mom stays home and takes care of the kids, Dad goes out and works, Friday night he gets together with his buddies and they sit out on their trucks in the parking lot and drink a lil tequila and howl like coyotes, but it's up early Saturday morning to take the kids to the park, and Sunday's church.

Their equivalents in white America: Mom and dad like as not divorced, if not they might as well be because they're both working fulltime or more than fulltime. The kids are latchkey, left with sitters or daycare, etc. They may or may not go to church, if they do better than even chance it's some looney one talking about the End Times. The kids are kicked out to sink or swim at 18. They got their tattoos and that's their life preparation!

I wonder if the Romans were as fucked up as we are, when the various European tribes came in, maybe dressed oddly and smelling different, but chances are they had a much more "human" social structure and family structure.

[Loki]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('I_Like_Plants', 'B')arbarians lol!!

Let's see, "mexicans", tend to live in coherent families, Mom stays home and takes care of the kids, Dad goes out and works, Friday night he gets together with his buddies and they sit out on their trucks in the parking lot and drink a lil tequila and howl like coyotes, but it's up early Saturday morning to take the kids to the park, and Sunday's church.