[mmasters]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', '
')I remember. It was Mmasters presenting The Money Masters, but I was unable to download it and view it unfortunately. I would have liked to have seen it for sure.

But I am quite embarassed that I caused this whole thread to be split from the other. Sorry about that. I will try to stay on topic. Cheers.

[Micki]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') think where Micki and others get their knickers all twisted in a knot is the double counting aspect that they suspect goes on. That gold reserves are somehow counted twice?

[drew]

Nice rant Mr Bill! I agree with your take on things and agree that there really is no grand conspiracy. I simply think it is easier to make money, and also affect markets, when one is wealthy.

If I was Bill Gates and decided to dump my silver it would likely have an effect on the markets one would think.

If I made a million a year and played the market with 300 k I could take risks that someone making 40k a year couldn't.

The wealthy have better access to information and capital than the ordinary bloke. Even someone as dense as Paris Hilton can hire a good broker.

Making money trading is about taking risks, plain and simple, and the wealthy/professionals can afford risks that most people cant.

Their info is better too.

Drew

[firestarter]

Mr Bill,

Last fall, someone linked this (click here) and wanted your comments relative to its content/accuracy. I think you were on vacation at the time and never viewed it. I found it very informative. Would appreciate any comments from you or others regarding its claims.

[threadbear]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('drew', 'N')ice rant Mr Bill! I agree with your take on things and agree that there really is no grand conspiracy. I simply think it is easier to make money, and also affect markets, when one is wealthy.

If I was Bill Gates and decided to dump my silver it would likely have an effect on the markets one would think.

If I made a million a year and played the market with 300 k I could take risks that someone making 40k a year couldn't.

The wealthy have better access to information and capital than the ordinary bloke. Even someone as dense as Paris Hilton can hire a good broker.

Making money trading is about taking risks, plain and simple, and the wealthy/professionals can afford risks that most people cant.

Their info is better too.

Drew

[MrBill]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('firestarter', 'M')r Bill,

Last fall, someone linked this (click here) and wanted your comments relative to its content/accuracy. I think you were on vacation at the time and never viewed it. I found it very informative. Would appreciate any comments from you or others regarding its claims.

[drew]

Threadbear, those are individual events, and yes they are conspiracies, but that is not what I meant. The kind of stuff you are talking about is criminal in nature is it not? Also, that type of scam operates on a rather small scale, although some poor bastard burned by Enron wouldn't feel that way!

Conspiracies of a global nature were what I was talking about, and I dont think they exist. The game isn't rigged to the point that big players win all the time, just look at Amaranth.

I do think the wealthy have more risk tolerance and can afford better info, as well as having inside info that we could only dream of. That is insufficient to call 'conspiracy' imo.

If I buy just before the market turns who's fault is that? It cant just keep on going up for ever can it? BTW, I have sold quite a few times before a run was played out and I have no one to blame but myself do I?



Drew

[Kingcoal]

Isn't it funny how it always comes down to conspiracy? The fundamental problem with big conspiracies is that the typical human is too dumb, petty and disloyal to make them work. Look at the mafia, it's a conspiracy, it's secret and it's full of rats. I think it's the same for governments - secrets, conspiracies and rats. People can't keep secrets, just ask the FBI. The temptation to brag is too great. Just add a little alcohol and out it comes.

[firestarter]

I think we need a primer regarding general semantics and obfuscation of reality vis-a-vis buzz words meant to silence or diminish the utterers of, such as the word conspiracy is designed to accomplish.

At any rate, conpiracies--existing or not existing-- are largely beside the point regarding market irregularities and inefficiencies. Given the nature of anything centrally managed, some folks have exclusive access to crucial market information--viz, power--that others do not have, and with this postioning comes absolute advantage, and given human nature, oft times illegitimate outcomes that necessarily favor the well connected over the the majority of everyday market participants.

The complexity of the financial markets also contribute to criminal behaviors therein that are deleterious (Darkside of the Looking Glass documents one such outcome) to the law abiding, unsuspecting market players. Whether or not the system is necessarily complex, what we have at work now, it seems to me, is a systemic operation that has become icreasingly hard to grasp by even the brightest minds, and as such invites immoral/criminal/greed inducing behaviors that benefit the few at the expense of the many. Those who benefit most, naturally like it that way. The status quo ante of the relative easily understood regarding commerce won't be pinned for very soon; for good reason.

[threadbear]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('drew', 'T')hreadbear, those are individual events, and yes they are conspiracies, but that is not what I meant. The kind of stuff you are talking about is criminal in nature is it not? Also, that type of scam operates on a rather small scale, although some poor bastard burned by Enron wouldn't feel that way!

Conspiracies of a global nature were what I was talking about, and I dont think they exist. The game isn't rigged to the point that big players win all the time, just look at Amaranth.

I do think the wealthy have more risk tolerance and can afford better info, as well as having inside info that we could only dream of. That is insufficient to call 'conspiracy' imo.

If I buy just before the market turns who's fault is that? It cant just keep on going up for ever can it? BTW, I have sold quite a few times before a run was played out and I have no one to blame but myself do I?



Drew

[drew]

You amuse me Threadbear!

Is the stockbroker who puts in my trade a crook when I've done the research and made my decision without any input from him? There are crooked stockbrokers, I'll admit that, but the vast majority aren't. I'd know, my dad was a broker for 20 years.

I was curious too, about your accounting knowledge. The practice as I studied it in university seems to have a lot more in common with what Mr Bill has to say about it than what you claim.

There are crooks in accounting and in business and occasionally they get caught.

Typically an accounting firm will review the data and offer an opinion as to the quality of the info posited by the company for an annual or quarterly report. BS put out by the company in question usually results in a qualified opinion by the accounting firm.

This is a clear signal to would-be investors and shareholders that something is amiss.

Why do you think companies like Nortel and GM have had to restate earnings multiple times? The Nortel guys are probably trying to stay out of jail I'd figure. GM is just broke.

I can read financial statements although I am not very good at it or very fast. It certainly isn't hocus pocus like you seem to believe.

Drew

[threadbear]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('drew', 'Y')ou amuse me Threadbear!

Is the stockbroker who puts in my trade a crook when I've done the research and made my decision without any input from him? There are crooked stockbrokers, I'll admit that, but the vast majority aren't. I'd know, my dad was a broker for 20 years.

I was curious too, about your accounting knowledge. The practice as I studied it in university seems to have a lot more in common with what Mr Bill has to say about it than what you claim.

There are crooks in accounting and in business and occasionally they get caught.

Typically an accounting firm will review the data and offer an opinion as to the quality of the info posited by the company for an annual or quarterly report. BS put out by the company in question usually results in a qualified opinion by the accounting firm.

This is a clear signal to would-be investors and shareholders that something is amiss.

Why do you think companies like Nortel and GM have had to restate earnings multiple times? The Nortel guys are probably trying to stay out of jail I'd figure. GM is just broke.

I can read financial statements although I am not very good at it or very fast. It certainly isn't hocus pocus like you seem to believe.

Drew

[threadbear]

Drew, For your amusement. My prior brokerage, the charges and the fine:

Edward Jones to Pay $75 Million to Settle Revenue Sharing Charges
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
2004-177

Washington, D.C., Dec. 22, 2004 — The Securities and Exchange Commission, NASD and the New York Stock Exchange announced settled enforcement proceedings against Edward D. Jones & Co., L.P., a registered broker-dealer headquartered in St. Louis, Missouri, related to allegations that Edward Jones failed to adequately disclose revenue sharing payments that it received from a select group of mutual fund families that Edward Jones recommended to its customers.

http://www.sec.gov/news/press/2004-177.htm

[mmasters]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', 'b')ut we should not confuse a market economy with the shortfalls of capitalism because in general it operates fairly well. and as for the abuses and greed that we see, especially, but not limited to America it does not make the market economy and capitalism at fault for every problem.

[drew]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'A')re you a forensic accountant? If not, don't trifle with me.

[threadbear]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('drew', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'A')re you a forensic accountant? If not, don't trifle with me.

[max_power29]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', '
')
Speculators may not necessarily have devil's horns growing out of their heads but we're certainly not angels either. We make our profits off other people's misfortune/ miscalculation....with full knowledge of this. However it's not the general public that we feed off of...it's actually each other. Speculators make their money off of other speculators. That's the Long and Short of It

[max_power29]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('drew', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'A')re you a forensic accountant? If not, don't trifle with me.

[max_power29]

I've been reading up on Ponzi lately. I seriously can not figure out what he did wrong. I couldnt find anything.

He didn't do anything different than the current modern masters of arbitrage.

He was ruined when the media and other "experts" declared him to be bankrupt/ruined. So people lost confidence and his business crashed. The same thing would happen to any business, market, or central debt based fiat economy, if the "experts" and media pounced on it.

[MrBill]

There is no denying that power corrupts and that absolute power corrupts absolutely. I think that is well established. Hence the checks & balances that are imposed on the system to keep the playing field level.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'U').S. government prosecutors announced charges Tuesday against the former head of the United Nations oil-for-food program, accusing him of receiving $160,000 in kickbacks from sales of Iraqi oil under the government of Saddam Hussein.

The seven-count indictment, unsealed in Federal District Court in Manhattan, was brought against Benon V. Sevan, 69, a Cypriot who served as executive director of the $64 billion aid program from 1997 until mid-2003. He was accused together with Ephraim Nadler, 79, a naturalized American citizen born in Egypt, of taking illegal commissions from an Egyptian oil trader in exchange for helping him secure contracts to purchase Iraqi oil. Both were charged with conspiracy and wire fraud.