$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seahorse', 'E')ntropy -
I hear what you are saying, but some of your explaination still begs the question. I'm not concerned about me, my death, etc. I'm not trying to understand why "I" am alive, only using the human body as an example.
PeakOil is You
atomic "memory" or "code" theory of evol
Re: atomic "memory" or "code" theory of
by entropyfails » Sat 13 Jan 2007, 23:02:49
I doubt that! *grin* You ask the question because you wish to resolve it in your mind because you feel it would have some use to you. What other reason would you ask the question? Of course this goes for all human curiosity, so I'm not knocking you or saying that I'm any different here. *smile*
As for begging the question, surprisingly I agree with your assessment of my argument. But I don't know if you can find a way out of this because we have no way to measure if the information domain is the cause of the real or if the real is the cause of the information domain. The self referential nature of the concept of atoms vs information leads to begging the question no matter how you approach it. But it is fun to understand it further, so I'll try explaining a my view further.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seahorse', '
')Entropy wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hey have to. They have no choice in the matter.
You say atoms form and act because they have to - this is my point. They have to because they have some sort of atomic memory or code they carry, and information call easily be shared/transferred via photon.
Photons do a lot more than we currently understand, I agree. But I don't think they carry all information of the atoms. They do not need to.
A "photon" is just one way of looking at energy in the universe. The specialness of the photon comes from it not having mass which allows it to live in the timeless domain. Atoms are another way of looking at energy. Atoms carry with them all of the collisions and nuclear explosions that they have endured in their transformation process. They can carry information and transmit it independently of photons, so I don't see the need to make the photon any more special with regard to information. I'll illustrate my point.
Carbon Atom A heads toward Carbon Atom B. Both have been through a huge transformation process from "pure energy" to hydrogen and from hydrogen to carbon. (with steps in between). They both carry the information about all the paths they took on their long journey in the form of their X,Y,Z positions and their energetic state.
Firstly, they have never been separated at all. They are connected by gravity and have been so since the beginning. As they draw closer, whatever causes gravity makes them accelerate even faster towards each other. No photons are sent between them but they both "know" that they are moving faster and faster towards each other. So this is an easy example of transferring information without any photons.
When they collided, let us look at their state. Atom A is at position X=1 (measured at the outer rim of the electron cloud in planck units). Atom B is at position X=-1. Atom A's electrons try to go into X=0 and Atom B's electron's position tries to obtain X=0. So we can ask, what probably happens?
Well the pauli exclusion principle says that the probability of these fermions get into the next state where they are both in state 0 as
both_in_same_X = A*B - B*A
Where A and B are the probability functions of the position of the respective electrons. Obviously, both_in_same = 0. So the atoms kinetic energy goes in the opposite direction because it cannot continue in the same direction. So they have communicated again without the need for a photon to transfer information. (The communication being that they both "understood" that they couldn't be in the same place at the same time.)
And it is this case that makes the whole thing so self-recursive. We have a probability function p(x) that goes to 0. That means there is no entropy in that communication. It is always a successful communication that A cannot go into B and B cannot go into A. So we now have a communication that atoms can engage in and a probability distribution function after that collision that causes probabilistic results. Hence, at the quantum level we have Shanon entropy and thus we have a information system.
Building from that base, let us look at the next step toward life. A long Carbon-Hydrogen-Oxygen molecule is formed by some random process, we will take it's vantage point. It is in a see of somewhat similar hydrocarbons. The molecule communicates with itself in the same manner as the atoms colliding. The system increases in entropy but there are certain fundamentals that allow for perfect communication.
Now this special hydrocarbon randomly bumps into a small cluster of other hydrocarbons. These hydrocarbons that we have bumped into are not in a long chain, but the smaller parts in the "soup" happen to have a weak chemical attraction to certain parts of "us" (the longer hydrocarbon). With enough bumping around, we have doubled our size by attaching an inverse pairing of hydrocarbons. Sometime later, we bump into a rock and our "pair" splits. Now the original copy goes off and does the same thing, but the negative copy goes off and builds another original copy. Now we have "life."
So where did the information to do that "copy processes" come from? It came from the fact that we never loose the quantum information and that the quantum world allows for perfect communication but also includes entropy and thus is Shannon theoretic. The UNIVERSE is smart on a fundamental level. The ATOMS are smart, they talk to each other.
Does this make more sense?
EntropyFails
"Little prigs and three-quarter madmen may have the conceit that the laws of nature are constantly broken for their sakes." -- Friedrich Nietzsche
"Little prigs and three-quarter madmen may have the conceit that the laws of nature are constantly broken for their sakes." -- Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: atomic "memory" or "code" theory of
by EnergyUnlimited » Sun 14 Jan 2007, 06:20:05
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seahorse', '.')..The second part of the above statement doesn't make sense. An atom does not become a part of a living thing, a living thing is the product of trillions of atoms.
However, as you said earlier in your post, $this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 't')hat properties of complex system are not necessarily a sum of properties of their components.
However, as you said earlier in your post, $this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 't')hat properties of complex system are not necessarily a sum of properties of their components.
I.E. consciousness.
Why doesn't it make sense?
Zillions of hydrogen (and oxygen) atoms from your daily cup of water are becoming parts of living thing (you), as they are incorporated into many critical materials present in your body (DNA included here), often replacing other hydrogen and oxygen atoms, which are later leaving your body.
Consciousness as emerging property? Certainly yes.
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EnergyUnlimited - Light Sweet Crude
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