[seahorse]

In evolution, there are still many gaps in the origins of life, namely, how did life first begin in this big genetic soup. How RNA and DNA first developed is almost pure speculation at this point.

However, a more basic question I have is, why do atoms form anything? In the billions of atoms that comprise me, why are they all working together, in me, constantly taking on new atoms and shedding old ones? Why would they have any need or desire to "survive", when atoms have no life expectancy? The atoms in my body, are as old as the known universe, yet for some reason, they have formed this person I call me, and will attempt to pass on my traits to other atoms in a code we call DNA. I ask this question for all atoms, not just ones that form people, but trees, any form.

It seems to me the answer lies in new research being done on atoms for computers. It seems certain that atoms can store information and can receive information via light, photons. Scientist are working towards the day when information will be stored via atom and transferred via light.

So, it seems plausible that the atoms which form the world around us could easily carry in them an "atomic memory" or "code" since the beginning of the big bang, and that, when incubated properly, the code begins to function on its own, creating all the world around us that we see now.

Just a thought. If this has already been suggested, I would appreciate some links to read up on it.


All printed information could be stored in a single atom.

UWPhysics

Use of photons to carry information to atoms

Science Daily

Machine Design

The race is on for developing quantum computers, essentially showing that "coded" or "memory" stored in atoms is possible.

quantum computers wiki

[EnergyUnlimited]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seahorse', 'I')n evolution, there are still many gaps in the origins of life, namely, how did life first begin in this big genetic soup. How RNA and DNA first developed is almost pure speculation at this point.

[seahorse]

Interesting, thanks

[Doly]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seahorse', '
')However, a more basic question I have is, why do atoms form anything? In the billions of atoms that comprise me, why are they all working together, in me, constantly taking on new atoms and shedding old ones? Why would they have any need or desire to "survive", when atoms have no life expectancy?

[PenultimateManStanding]

I read the Dawkins/Collins debate on evolution vs. religion and it seemed to come down to this on Dawkins' part: God is a cop-out. But then after the debate went on Dawkins came around to this: well if there is God then it isn't one of those old gods from the past. God is unimaginably Grand he said. No problem there. Intelligent atoms? why not, who knows? Personally, I think that DNA is much more than anyone grasps. Right now we seem to be between gods. In the fullness of time, a new God will appear, but not now. Now is decay time.

[NEOPO]

1. . . . The last Vibration of the Seventh Eternity thrills through Infinitude. The Mother swells, expanding from within without, like the Bud of the Lotus.

2. The Vibration sweeps along,touching with its swift Wing the whole Universe and the Germ that dwelleth in Darkness, the Darkness that breathes over the slumbering Waters of Life..

3. Darkness radiates Light, and Light drops one solitary Ray into the Waters, into the Mother-Deep. The Ray shoots through the Virgin Egg, the Ray causes the Eternal Egg to thrill, and drop the non-eternal Germ, which condenses into the World-Egg.


4. The Three fall into the Four. The Radiant Essence becomes Seven inside, Seven outside. The Luminous Egg, which in itself is Three, curdles and spreads in milk-white Curds throughout the Depths of Mother, the root that grows in the Depths of the Ocean of Life.

5. The Root remains, the Light remains, the Curds remain and Still Oeaohoo is One.

6. The Root of Life was in every Drop of the Ocean of Immortality , and the Ocean was Radiant Light, which was Fire, and Heat, and Motion. Darkness vanished and was no more; it disappeared in its own Essence, the Body of Fire and Water, of Father and Mother.

7. Behold, O Lanoo, the Radiant Child of the Two, the unparalleled refulgent Glory- Bright Space, Son of Dark Space, who emerges from the Depths of the great Dark Waters. It is Oeaohoo, the Younger, the ***.He shine forth as the Sun,he is the Blazing Divine Dragon of Wisdom; the Eka is Chatur, and Chatur, takes to itself Tri, and the Union produces the Sapta, in whom are the Seven, which become the Tridasha, the Hosts and the Multitudes. Behold him lifting the Veil, and unfurling it from East to West. He shuts out the Above, and leaves the Below to be seen as the Great Illusion. He marks the places for the Shining Ones, and turns the Upper into a shoreless Sea of Fire, and the One Manifested into the Great Waters.

8. Where was the Germ, and where was now Darkness? Where is the Spirit of the Flame that burns in thy Lamp, O Lanoo? The Germ is That, and That is Light, the White Brilliant Son of the Dark Hidden Father.

9. Light is Cold Flame, and Flame is Fire, and Fire produces Heat, which yields Water - The Water of Life in the Great Mother.

10. Father-Mother spin a Web, whose upper end is fastened to Spirit, the Light of the One Darkness, and the lower one to its shadowy end, Matter; and this Web is the Universe, spun out of the Two Substances made in One, which is Svabhavat.

11. It expands when the Breath of Fire is upon it; it contracts when the Breath of the Mother touches it. Then the Sons dissociate and scatter, to return into their Mother's Bosom, at the end of the Great Day, and re-become one with her. When it is cooling, it becomes radiant. Its Sons expand and contract through their own Selves and Hearts; they embrace Infinitude.

12. Then Svabhavat send Fohat to harden the Atoms. Each is a part of the Web. Reflecting the "Self-Existent Lord", like a Mirror, each becomes in turn a World

The stanzas of Dzyan - Cosmogenesis - stanza 3:

THE STANZAS OF DZYAN

Science is religion is science.

[seahorse]

Doly,

I appreciate the link. Its interesting, but still doesn't answer the question for me. Conway was using cells, which of course, are made up of atoms. Why do atoms form anything beyond themselves? If they are following rules, then, how are they carrying the rules and how did they get in them? This is my question of atomic memory. I believe, in fact, that atoms hold a memory, a basic rule set, which under the right "genetic soup" causes the atoms to interact and begin playing out.

Conway's game of life wiki

Now, as EU points out, under the big bang theory, atoms were a product of the big bang, but, relatively speaking, they are as old as the known universe, and apparently, don't die. They are replicating not to "live" but bc they are operating under a set of rules in their atomic memory.

Brief history of the universe

[seahorse2]

It seems the proof of an atomic code or memory is found in life itself - evolution seems to prove it.

Here's a link to "evolution" experiments using computer software.

Core Wars

The fact that atoms work to replicate or more accurately, manipulate other atoms in structures, suggest they operate under a set of rules. Evolution and "evolution" computer experiments strongly suggest the existence of an atomic memory or code, even though we can't, yet, access that code.

One might ask how atoms "communicate" or "share" information, but since we know photons can transfer information to and between atoms, it seems likely that the atomic code or memory could easily be shared or transferred via light, photons.

I don't want anyone to confuse what I'm suggesting here. I'm not suggesting for the existence or god or no god. I'm simply trying to plug a whole in evolutionary theory about the beginnings of prebiotic life: how and really WHY do atoms form RNA? why do atoms bind together to form a genetic code to replicate anything? why do they transfer genetic code DNA to "survive," when they atoms individually have no life expectancy? This all suggest a basic set of rules that they hold in an "atomic memory."

Now, I do think that if its true that atoms operate via an atomic memory or code, it leads to a philosophical question about how that code gets there, where do the rules originate.? But that's a question for another day. That could be a religious question, a physics questions etc., however that question is ultimately answered doesn't take away from the fact that atoms seem to operate via an imbedded memory.

[EnergyUnlimited]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seahorse', '
')Now, as EU points out, under the big bang theory, atoms were a product of the big bang, but, relatively speaking, they are as old as the known universe, and apparently, don't die. They are replicating not to "live" but bc they are operating under a set of rules in their atomic memory.

[PenultimateManStanding]

this is a puzzlng thread, seahorse. It is a commonplace understanding that atoms form molecules, and complex organic molecules form under the right conditions. Why is it neccessary to postulate that atoms store information other than that implied by valence and physics? The big mystery is how the transition from complex organic molecules to the first living ones occurred. What am I missing here?

[seahorse2]

PMS,

I want to know why atoms replicate anything? Why bother? Why not just float listlessly and do nothing but be an atom? Why come together, ultimately link together, form DNA and pass on traits and characteristics to "survive"? Survive what, a black hole? If they "fear" a black hole, this implies some form of intelligence.

But I do not believe fear of a black hole or some other cosmic destruction, is the best explanation. First, my body would be consumed in a black hole, their is no escape. I don't think atoms in our bodies, for example, are constantly taking on more atoms and shedding other atomes, forming DNA etc., out of a fear of a black hole - bc nothing escapes the black hole. It seems more plausible atoms bind and work together bc they carry a code or a memory and are acting pursuant to it, just like the computer experiments into evolution linked above show.

Surely, atoms can be destroyed, just like I could destroy a hard drive. But I'm suggesting something more than the atom, which is for lack of a better analogy simply a store or carrier of information. I'm suggesting that evolution, the fact that they do anything beyond just float listlessly as an individual atom, suggests that they carry in them an atomic memory or code, a set of rules, and are operating under that code, which tells them to start replicating as evolution demonstrates is occuring and as the computer and other cell experiments demonstrate.

We know they can store information, we know that information can be carried via photon, so if it can happen, and in fact, since computer science is attempting to do just that, why is it so hard to believe its not happening already, on a scale we haven't thought about?

It is quite possible that all atoms don't carry a memory or code, but that code or memory is or can be transferred through the universe via photons, which we know can transfer information, and which we know are travelling through the universe.

It seems that an atomic memory/code is a very logical simple explaination to observed evolutionary phenonema and answers some very basic questions.

[PenultimateManStanding]

but, but, atoms don't replicate. Where did you get that from? They make up structures that do replicate if in living beings. Maybe you mean figuratively: they form complex entities that replicate, therefore "they" replicate. But they don't. Carbon atoms don't give birth to baby carbon atoms. It's no skin off of a carbon atom's nose if it's part of a DNA molecule or a chunk of graphite. The interesting stuff happens at a higher level, as an emergent property as an earlier poster put it. That's how I see it anyway.

[oowolf]

It's not possible to construct a "coherent" model of such things using mammalian perceptual prejudices. The idea that a bunch of demented monkeys can "figure out" whats "really" going on is ludicrous. What's the shortest amount of time that can be? Something like 6.7 septillionths of a second? (I'm not a physicst), Isn't this the light distance between 2 adjacent protons? Anyway we cannot optically percieve an event that doesn't persist for about 1/20th of a second; so we can't even observe 99.999999999999999% of what's going on around us.

We don't have a clue what the Hell's going on--other than it's probably going to suck.

"Death: The cessation of a temporary confusion."
Can't recall who said it--Bierce? Mencken?

[NEOPO]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'm')ammalian perceptual prejudices

[oowolf]

The universe is the "inside" of a black hole. Everything came here from the "other side" of the singularity.

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('oowolf', 'T')he universe is the "inside" of a black hole. Everything came here from the "other side" of the singularity.

[oowolf]

What's the connection between the dreaded swastika and Coca Cola? Click on "Look Closer".
http://americana.heritageauctions.com/c ... true#Photo

[seahorse2]

PMS,

You are correct, I don't mean atoms replicate themselves, but come together to form structures that replicate, change, etc, just like the computer evolution programs, just like what we are witnessing in evolution.

Neopo,

No question in my mind that modern science and religion/philosophy are hopessly entangled. However, that doesn't or should stop us from asking questions and attempting to understand the world around us. As Thomas Paine said in his book, "The Age of Reason" in which he thoroughly debunked the Bible, he concluded by saying the proof of god is all around us, and that religion, the study of God, is simply trying to understand the universe.

[EnergyUnlimited]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seahorse2', '
')It seems that an atomic memory/code is a very logical simple explaination to observed evolutionary phenonema and answers some very basic questions.