[FatherOfTwo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('max_power29', 'A')lso , where are you going to get and how are you going to pay for the precious and semi precious metals for all these car batteries?

Cars are not the way to go. Trains are what is needed.

[Starvid]

The idea that there shouldn't be enough power generation capacity is absurd. China built 210.000 MW in just the last three years. It's not rocket science.

[Heineken]

It isn't just cars that are the problem. No matter HOW they're powered, they underlie a vast, wasteful, destructive infrastructure that cannot possibly last.

[Denny]

All the incremental load comes from relatively lower efficiency (at least in terms of cost) sources.

The electric power it takes to charge those batteries, if that day comes, will be produced mostly by by thermal generation means, involving natural gas or oil and its not very efficient. Burning fuel to make steam to spin a turbine that then exhausts most of the heat put in is no recipe for success. Then, there are further losses along the electric grid.

And, lets not forget how many people do not work 9 to 5. People on other work patterns will exacerbate the peak demand picture, and the grid is not really equipped for that.

[Gazzatrone]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Graeme', '[')b]Nation's energy grid could power almost 185 million electric cars

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A') Department of Energy report shows that the U.S. energy grid could support up to 185 million electric or hybrid cars. The department believes a switch to the newer vehicles would clean up the environment and could even improve our national security situation by reducing the need for imported oil.

While the 185 million car figure is certainly amazing, there are a few "gotchas" thrown into the mix. First, the cars have to be plug-in hybrid electrics which are not commonly available today. Modern hybrids like the Toyota Prius charge and store electricity on the fly while driving and do not plug into the wall.

[grabby]

one gallon of gasoline is about 35,000 kilowatt hours I think, if I remember right.
we use 9 million barrels of gasoline a day in the USA

this is about 400 million gallons of gasoline a day.

how many more killowatt hours is that?


400 million time 35 kilowatt hours

so the grid would have to give us

14,000,000,000 more kilowatt hours PER DAY extra to run all our cars.

AND this will come from burning 9 million MOPRE BARRELS OF OIL to supply this electricity...

YOou see? did you catch on?

they said, all you need to do is plug in and we can run it
but they will have to burn that much more oil to MAKE the power.

so it was some hot mouth oil executive that came up with that Idea.

wont work we dont have that much extra oil or water or natuiral gas) per day.

The US fleet average of 23 miles per gallon of gasoline is equivalent to 1.58 kWh per mile .

So my Honda generator (1 kilowatt), running for 14 billion days or 38 million years can power the USA cars for one day whatever that is worth.

[Starvid]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'I')t isn't just cars that are the problem. No matter HOW they're powered, they underlie a vast, wasteful, destructive infrastructure that cannot possibly last.

[Starvid]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('grabby', 'o')ne gallon of gasoline is about 35,000 kilowatt hours I think, if I remember right.
we use 9 million barrels of gasoline a day in the USA

this is about 400 million gallons of gasoline a day.

how many more killowatt hours is that?


400 million time 35 kilowatt hours

so the grid would have to give us

14,000,000,000 more kilowatt hours PER DAY extra to run all our cars.

AND this will come from burning 9 million MOPRE BARRELS OF OIL to supply this electricity...

YOou see? did you catch on?

they said, all you need to do is plug in and we can run it
but they will have to burn that much more oil to MAKE the power.

so it was some hot mouth oil executive that came up with that Idea.

wont work we dont have that much extra oil or water or natuiral gas) per day.

The US fleet average of 23 miles per gallon of gasoline is equivalent to 1.58 kWh per mile .

So my Honda generator (1 kilowatt), running for 14 billion days can power the USA cars for one day whatever that is worth.

[grabby]

thanks for pointing out the kilwatt was accidentally left on, but the answer is the same, here let me fix if for you since the final answer is correct, and you wont have to go back and try and reread it,

Repost:

one gallon of gasoline is about 35,000 watt hours I think, if I remember right.

That would be 35 kilowatt hours.
( checked it out)

we use 9 million barrels of gasoline a day in the USA

this is about 400 million gallons of gasoline a day.

how many more killowatt hours is that?


400 million gallons times 35 kilowatt hours

so the grid would have to give us

14,000,000, 000 more kilowatt hours PER DAY extra to run all our cars.

AND this will come from burning 9 million MOPRE BARRELS OF OIL to supply this electricity...

YOou see? did you catch on?

they said, all you need to do is plug in and we can run it
but they will have to burn that much more oil to MAKE the power.


Conversion from


Wont work we dont have that much extra oil or water or natuiral gas) per day.

The US fleet average of 23 miles per gallon of gasoline is equivalent to 1.58 kWh per mile .

So my Honda generator (1 kilowatt), running for 14 billion days or 38 million years can power the USA cars for one day whatever that is worth.

[grabby]

That would be 5,110, 000,000,000 kilowatt hours per year additional to distribute through the grid.

I encourage everyone do do their own calculations.
1 gallon gasoline has about 35 thousand watts running for one hour calculate it yourself. there is no better way to see how rediculus it is to replace our oil consumption with electricity than to actually calculate it out.

If everyone charges the cars at night the only hope for generating power is really coal and oil. MIT hasn't perfected their nano tech moon panels yet.

Nuclear It would take hundreds of nuclear plants to equate our grid, theny take years to build.

no time for that

If electric car owners are given different times to plug in at to spread the load we only need another grid additional just like the one we have.

This wont work since everyone with an electric car will demand to all plug them in at 5 pm after work.

So, we will need SEVERAL GRIDS just like the one we have, not probable in any way.

What we need is moon panels that can make power from moonlight at the same rate as solar panels.

Moon panels could be something the boys at MIT are probably working on along with antimatter energy generators.as part of the new technology.

This will save us!
You know how much moonpower there is?
EVerywhere in the world everynight is light from the moon.

Not as good as ethanol though.

Bottom line:
New TECH is a smoke screen to keep the ignorant passified
When we have people supporting hydrogen ethanol and electricity, every0one is happy and this is important until revolt-free systems are in place.

We can't win by education, every month popular science or popular mechanics prints another "svae the world with this" issue, and the people will believe a dream magazine over the facts all the time.

One friend who I explained peak oiol to, and I thought he "got it" next month came and showed me all excited how we were "saved" there was a windmill issue or something like that.

MONEY WINS advertising wins, even the repubs state WE HAVE MORE MONEY in our chest therefore we will win.

Everyone is gullible and that is the problem, no one has a calculator.

[grabby]

Here is the bottom line opinion.
The boys who call the shots are not interested in keeping the status quo going, that is impossible.
They seem to be interested in keeping the majority pacified and hopeful that the status quo is sutainable and can continue through ethnol-nanotech-silicone-hydrogen-antimatter-windmills.

Now, let me just ask you something.

Do you think the boys are doing a great job at keeping the people un-worried and pacified, and the dis-information is working?
I say yes. It is working just fine, thank you. Disinformation is working and will continue to work as long as we have propsed hi-tech ideas that give huge profits to many, as long as we recieve slick magazines coming into living rooms every month with the latest futuristic energy flying automobiles coming to us.

And as long as there is DIS-information coming to us at higher volume than truth, the average lazy person will make his decisions based on WHAT IS THE MAJORITY SAYING? Or what did the news this morning tell me it was? We have too much information to check any mmore so we now have to DECIDE WHAT TO ACCEPT and we weigh this in the only available units we have, volume.

This is what the free information age has done to our reasoning ability, turned us into a scale-balance.

So all that has to be done is insure the majority of information is along the lines of what is wanted for us to believe and thats what is accepted.
With majority disinformation, you win the majority to disinformation. When the polls tell the distributers they have a majority, then they cause a vote and it is set in stone.
All you do next is vote on it. Victory for disinformation. Then on to the next step.

BUT, you know that you are still responsible for what you decide even if you didn't bother to check it out. The people loose in the end...

Only one thing trumps disinformation. That is TRUTH combined with an unlazy opened mind. Multiple cross examination always exposes disinformation. Cross examination on high tech energy is never allowed. Notice that on any article of high tech?

We must have TRUTH and we must give it to honest people who still think, and there are very few of those left. Most are trained to make snap judgement so your quickly dissed.

If you do not have and honest heart and the truth, those two things, you will not succeed in teaching anything new. You will loose. If the person you are talking to is a bit lazy, you will loose. They wont check it themselves...

Those people you meet who are not too lazy and who actually listen and ask questions (one in a million) just tell them to pull out a calculator and check out the numbers on any proposition.
They will quickly see the imposibility of oil replacement and sustained current lifestyle. no matter what the proposed idea.

Hi tech ideas makes people think everything will be ok when everything will not be ok.

And the people selling high tech actually believe it themselves, or they wouldn't be selling it. They were lazy but they were interested in profits.

They are going to make some money at it...

But the super-rich-priviledged are definitley understand peak oil and current unsustainable living, they seem to be insuring in every way that their current lifestyle for themselves will continue. And they are sure they may think they have it figured out. We hear of huge hordes of gold, oil and water deposits tucked away. Politicians buy8ing getaways with solar roofs etc etc.

We know that most everyone rich and poor, will NOT be able to continue their current lifestyle, and the majority will not be able to even continue. And they don't know it. When you tell most people the truth they usually never believe you, and they attack your character with name-calling and throw red herrings at you but they never seem to address the unsustainable lifestyle. they'll turn on you for telling them, they don't like you, they percieve the truth as an attack against them, when it was meant to be correction of the whole idea of replacement of an unsustainable culture.
..

If the majority of information is dis-information, then disinformation will win.
.I saw some poor guy stands out front of a construction project in NY, with a megaphone shouting to the people in the streets to wake up! wake up! We need to open an investigation etc etc etc I saw it on video.google.com and the people walking by circle AROUND him they know he's loony.
They aren't going to believe him he is wasting his time.
On the truth of peak oil we cannot win against the disinformation but we can help anyone who is unlazy and who is honest.

Thats fine, be happy. Some listen and most don't Que sera sera.

___________________________________

123456789Lpost

[Starvid]

We have been calculating the amount of electricity needed ten times over. Use the search function.

Replacing all US oil transportation use (ships, trucks, cars, planes etc) required something around 25-50 % more power. US average load is 500 GW so we are talking about something like 125-250 GW new power over a couple of decades. And the Chinese built 210 GW over the last three years.

Power availability just aint a problem.

edit: Actually, just because I am such a nice guy, I did the searching for you.

And lo and behold! it was a thread you started yourself. Maybe you should read it? http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic17736-0-asc-15.html
A thread back from the days when there was actually debate around here and just not Doomer Death Cult (tm).

[yesplease]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('emersonbiggins', 'D')id I miss some sort of nuclear buildup? Or are we powering these PHEVs with oil, natgas, and, of course, good ol' coal?

[grabby]

Calculations dont tell the real world story. It is easy to calculate ethanol production but quite another thing to do it. LETS take a REAL WORLD EXAMPLE of power generation and how much power is actually produced in the real world and then how many of these plants we would need to run our cars, (9 million barrels of GASOLINE a day.)

July 8, 1998 -- Bay City, TX--On the 4th of July, South Texas Project [TWO HIGH OUTPUT PRESSURIZED NUCLEAR REACTORS] achieved 150 billion kilowatt-hours of electrical generation in less than ten years of operation. STP units ranked as high as fourth in the U.S. and 13th in the world for electrical generation in 1997. There are currently 105 operating nuclear units in the U.S. and 437 world-wide.

"I’m extremely proud that we produced 150 billion kilowatt-hours for the state of Texas in such a relatively short period of time. The credit goes to our employees whose hard work continues to result in an exceptionally safe, reliable and efficient plant," said Bill Cottle, STP Nuclear Operating Company president and CEO.

The generation of 150 billion kilowatt-hours is equivalent to the energy produced from burning 90.3 million tons of coal or 250.5 million barrels of oil that would result in the emission of 30 - 40 million metric tons of carbon into the air. Nuclear energy plants do not burn fossil fuels and so do not emit any greenhouse gases or other air pollutants.

Since nuclear plants take years to build we would have to run on coal to replace our needs quickly.

and you run plants like these for ten years you can power americas cars for 1 month.

so if you build 12 sets of these nuclear plants and run them for ten years you can power all our cars for a year.

so if you build 120 of these DUAL plants (240 REACTORS) then you can run our cars live.

and our grid will handle that fine?

if we start now in ten years we could have 120 sets of nuclear power plants instead of coal

Think this will happen?
Not till the oil peaks. No nuke plants going to be built today.

but we could just burn the coal and build the plants tomorrow.

150 billion kilowatt hours equals 90.3 megatons of coal, equals 250 million barrels of oil = needs for USA cars for one month.

1.8 trillion kilowatt hours per year is needs for american cars ONLY for the year approximately. or about a billion tons of coal a year for the needs for just the cars.

America produces and uses about 1 billion tons of coal every year.

We would need to double that to build coal fired plants.

Can our grid hatdle another 1.8 trillion kilowatthours of power per year? if you make it big enough yes.

Can sudden ilnesses change congress?

Will there be more strokes and heart attacks?

Stay tuned, these are all questions we ask ourselves.


_______________
FYI
The South Texas Nuclear Generating Station, also known as the South Texas Project (STP), is a nuclear power station located at coordinates 28.800 -96.052, southwest of Bay City, Texas, United States. The STP occupies a 12,200 acre (49 km²) site on the Colorado River about 90 miles (145 km) southwest of Houston. The STP was the first nuclear power plant in Texas. In 1996, the two South Texas units, both Westinghouse pressurized water reactors, were two of the top 20 electricity generating nuclear units worldwide.

we need only 120 sets of TWO HIGH POWER NUCLEAR REACTORS of them to make our cars run.
I have made multiple posts where I stated we would need hundreds of nuclear reactoirs to power our cars. I stand by it. And it still won't ever happen.
Peak will get us first.

[Starvid]

Read the link I posted. Plenty of calculation there.

edit: So sorry, posted the wrong link. This is the right one: http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic17736-0-asc-15.html

edit2: I might as well post the core of the argument right here. Enjoy.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')onsidering the amount of power needed to run electric cars I think you are a bit off. Let's look at the energy flow diagram posted by jimk.



As you can see transportation is almost entirely powered by petroleum and NGPL. Transportation is 26,5 quads out of which only 5,3 quads are converted to useful energy (ie propelling cars and trains, the rest is waste heat) mirroring the roughly 20 % efficiency of the infernal combustion engine (5,3/26,5=0,2).

Ok, transportation require 5,3 quads of useful energy. Let's say batteries become good enough for electric cars. Then we need 5,3 quads of useful energy to power these cars. Since an electric car has an efficiency of roughly 75 % we will need 5,3/0,75= 7,1 quads of electricity, and since a nclear power plant has an efficieny of roughly 33 % we will need 7,1/0,33= 21,4 quads of nuclear energy.

The current production of nuclear energy in the US is 8,1 quads, so we need roughly 21,4/8,1= 2,64 times as much nuclear energy to supply the electric cars with power.

Since nuclear power supplies 20 % of the US power needs, this would equal a total increase in power generation capacity of 20 %*2,64= 52 %.

A big increase yes, but not at all impossible.

[LGW]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('grabby', 'o')ne gallon of gasoline is about 35,000 kilowatt hours I think, if I remember right.

[dogf]

"America is all about speed. Hot, nasty, bass ass speed".
Eleanor Roosevelt 1936

Eliminate all the doomers, geeks and politicians and you are left with middle and lower class America that will deal with this problem. The one thing all countries can agree on about you Americans is the size of your gonads. We admire you for it

Great Briton is used to paying 8 bucks a gallon and you will accept this eventually, which will give us all lots of time to make the switch as we ride down the other side of peak.
By the time you are paying 10 bucks a gallon, you will have gotten up all the windmills for night time charging.
The employees will be available after next years economic meltdown. They will be building/rebuilding the infrastructure. GM and others are now saying mass production of plug in is on the way. Sure GM will screw it up but the imports won't.
Remember this is not an overnight thing. A relaxed changeover of 10 years will be more than fast enough compared to the price of gas.

Too many doomers who are not about peak oil anymore. With the curve of growth of money being thrown at this whole problem, I am sure you will all look back in 20 years and be very surprised at what you can do.
There is just too much money to be made fixing the problem. And there is only one thing more important to the average American than their cars....

[grabby]

One other point. Remember that the people who work for the oil companies can "prove" with existing data and with calculations that we have an unprecidented 50 years of increasing oil flow.
We have to be careful what we believe.

Numbers are good, but we have to use the existing right numbers to come to the correct calculations.

Our grid is having brownouts now as it is and is creaking, even slight increases will increase problems.

Electricity is nice for the few that can afford it, but electric cars, I predict will make absolutely no impact in the near future, so don't worry about it.

[JRP3]

I'm trying to find out what percentages of what fuels, (oil, coal, wind etc.), makes up the national power grid but have not been able to come up with anything useful. I figured someone here should know or could point me in the right direction.

[Doly]

It would help if you mentioned what country you live in. Most governments make that data available in the site of whatever ministry or agency takes care of energy. Also, if you live in the States, you may want to look at the figures for your State specifically.