[Ancien_Opus]

Gekko said: [/quote]If you listen to Rose Wilder Lane, who wrote "Discovery of Freedom", she chronicles all of human history in relationship to freedom and concludes that all the spurts of advance were periods of freedom, while all the periods of stagnation and general human suffering were periods of slavery.
[quote]

Invention is dependent upon freedom, freedom is dependent upon a surplus of energy. You have no time to spend on creative invention if all of your time is consumed in survival.

You need look no further than industrial agriculture. A single farmer can only exploit 2000 acres of cultivation given the prodigous use of fossil fueled equipment and petrol based fertilizer, herbicides and insecticides. Take away the petrol and you're back to a 80 acre two mule farm. The same amount of time is spent on each endeavor.

Without the energy you can not have the freedom of time to invent.

[captain_planet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('montequest', 'U')sing what source of energy? Their bare hands? Taking centuries to construct? Who will pay their wages? When will this start? Did you not read what has been written already in this thread?

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('captain_planet', ' ')The source of energy will come from people.

[TonyPrep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('captain_planet', 'S')o the alternative will not replace the volumes we consume it, but instead alternatives will power our basic needs.

[TonyPrep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('captain_planet', 'A') fit human can generate 75 watts cycling at a continuos 12mph,

[captain_planet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TonyPrep', 'O')il/gas/coal powers the homes of people working (or who will work) in alternative energy industries. It powers the plants that produce the steel and concrete needed to build the alternative energies. It powers the offices and computers of the designers of this infrastructure. It paves the roads to these alternative power plants. It feeds the people invoved. It transports the raw materials. If you can ony build the alternatives using energy and lubricants from existing alternatives, then it will be decades or centuries before you build enough alternative infrastructure to make a difference. If you're not new to this, how come this is new to you?

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('captain_planet', ' ')The energy will come from calories(food).

[TonyPrep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('captain_planet', 'T')o counter it, steel has been around as early as 200 A.D.

[TonyPrep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('captain_planet', ' ')The energy will come from calories(food).

[captain_planet]

http://www.energybulletin.net/13171.html

This is a interesting article about Cuba and its adaptation to post-peak oil. Cuba does not have the infrastructure like in the US but they showed what can be done. If only they had one 1200 mega watt pebble bed reactor things could of changed greatly there. For example the United States generates 3.892 trillion kWh with a population of 298,444,215 http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/fac ... nt/us.html that is 12.25 MWh per person in America vs Cuba which generated 15.65 billion kWh with a population of 11,382,820 http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/fac ... nt/cu.html that equals to 1.37 MWh per person in Cuba. American's use 12 to 1 more electricity then Cuba.

I forgot to add that oxygen is also is what powers humans.

[Omnitir]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('zensui', '
')IMO, humanity may be "branching" in 2 groups:

the ones that gamble for an evolution of humanity to an ecological friendly lifestyle

&

the ones that gamble for "keeping business as usual"

[peripato]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', 'H')as the possibility occurred to you that ‘business as usual’ may in fact be the best course to achieve an evolution of humanity towards an ecological friendly lifestyle?

[Omnitir]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('peripato', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', 'H')as the possibility occurred to you that ‘business as usual’ may in fact be the best course to achieve an evolution of humanity towards an ecological friendly lifestyle?

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', ' ')So yes, the system that got us into this mess will be used (and improved upon) to get us out of this mess. But it’s hardly doing the same thing over and over.

[Ludi]

When will "getting us out of this mess" begin? Currently, by all expert opinion, we are still getting deeper and deeper into the mess. When will these "improvements" begin to get us out of this mess?

[Omnitir]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', ' ')Nothing wrong with the system, it just needs tweaked?

[Ludi]

You claimed improvments will get us out of this mess. When?

When will they start getting us out of this mess, instead of deeper into it?

That's the question. Not "are we changing" or "are we not changing."

Holy crapping crap.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', ' ')So you think it’s impossible to achieve sustainability through an evolution of what we currently have?

[Omnitir]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'Y')ou claimed improvments will get us out of this mess. When?

When will they start getting us out of this mess, instead of deeper into it?

That's the question. Not "are we changing" or "are we not changing."

Holy crapping crap.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', 'M')y argument is that we are always changing – the notion that we have to start something that is already well and truly in progress makes no sense.