[magician]

and this whole arguement, seen here and elseware on this site, relating to how a citizenry cannot possibly take up arms against the state, or governments in general as citizens with small arms, is utter bullshit. as if the size, proliferation, ect of your toys guarantees victory in battle. nation states cannot do asymetrical warfare. period end of story. iraq, vietnam, afghanistan (soviet and american mukery both) are shining examples of how people who make such arguements about why resistance is futile or "your guns wont stop tyranny in 4th gen warfare" ect are ignorant of history, military tactics, the limits of modern weaponry, and general state of world affairs. to those people i suggest (assuming they can read above a newspaper level) to read "the art of war" by sun tsu. it might shed some light on why we are getting our asses handed to us in iraq, and had them handed to us in Nam. oh but some asshole who only gets his news from cable and only understands his trained specialty in life will get on his high horse and talk about why we are winning in iraq and other bullshit. we are losing for the same reason the arguement they make about a weak citizenry being an ineffective fighting force is bullshit. they live there and have enough left over rusty soviet weaponry and homeade bombs that they can keep things interesting and ECONOMICALLY AND MILITARILY BLEED US DRY BY SAPPING OUR RESOURCES.

--fr coyote

[ClassicSpiderman]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('RonMN', 'A')nybody ever hear of a "scortched earth policy"?
If they wanna use you land for a big box store (wallmart/home depot)...then there's not much you can do.
If your farmland is intended to be used as farmland...you could drizzle waste oil all over the property.
If they intend to use your shelter as "their" shelter...you could set it on fire.
If they intend to steal your water, you could poisen it.
If they intend to confiscate your gold/silver...you could throw it into the river.
None of these thing will help you...but they will help others as the ugliness progresses.

[seldom_seen]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('magician', 't')hey live there and have enough left over rusty soviet weaponry and homeade bombs that they can keep things interesting and ECONOMICALLY AND MILITARILY BLEED US DRY BY SAPPING OUR RESOURCES.

[elocs]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('RonMN', 'A')nybody ever hear of a "scortched earth policy"?
If they wanna use you land for a big box store (wallmart/home depot)...then there's not much you can do. --snip-- None of these thing will help you...but they will help others as the ugliness progresses.

[zoidberg]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('magician', 'a')nd this whole arguement, seen here and elseware on this site, relating to how a citizenry cannot possibly take up arms against the state, or governments in general as citizens with small arms, is utter bullshit. as if the size, proliferation, ect of your toys guarantees victory in battle. nation states cannot do asymetrical warfare. period end of story. iraq, vietnam, afghanistan (soviet and american mukery both) are shining examples of how people who make such arguements about why resistance is futile or "your guns wont stop tyranny in 4th gen warfare" ect are ignorant of history, military tactics, the limits of modern weaponry, and general state of world affairs. to those people i suggest (assuming they can read above a newspaper level) to read "the art of war" by sun tsu. it might shed some light on why we are getting our asses handed to us in iraq, and had them handed to us in Nam. oh but some asshole who only gets his news from cable and only understands his trained specialty in life will get on his high horse and talk about why we are winning in iraq and other bullshit. we are losing for the same reason the arguement they make about a weak citizenry being an ineffective fighting force is bullshit. they live there and have enough left over rusty soviet weaponry and homeade bombs that they can keep things interesting and ECONOMICALLY AND MILITARILY BLEED US DRY BY SAPPING OUR RESOURCES.

--fr coyote

[EnergyUnlimited]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('zoidberg', 'E')xcellent reply. Exactly true. Plus in a civil situation those storm troopers depends on citizens to supply them with food, energy, everything(never-mind recruiting citizens to be stormtroopers). It doesn't take much fighting against the citizenry before you lose your ability to fight. --snip-- Think about it. Of course if the US nuked everything thats different, but its also virtually impossible and defeats the purpose of trying to take and hold Iraq.

[zoidberg]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', '
')I think, guys you are joking here.

[Bug]

The thread even though it got off topic, but that's OK the topics discussed were interesting.

The bottom line is this. What is a middle class person to do faced with future scenarios.

My concern is not so much asset seizure to support grabbing scarce resources to keep the rabble at bay, but seizure, euphemistically called 'foreclosure' by tax authorities because people are unable to pay taxes that skyrocket as interest rates soar.

If it is true the US government is 49 trillion dollars in the hole to the bankers and bondholders for monies borrowed, not including interest, then they will turn to taxpayer to pay their keepers. Taxpayers are their assets, and if the taxpayer can't pay, they will go after the property that taxpayer owns. Ultimately, everything you own in collateral to that 49 trillion debt. And that doesn't even include the fact your local property and state taxes will go up because those governments borrowed money as well and are also in the hole.

So think about it what would be the best course of action for someone who wants to prepare, with the above scenario in mind?

Do you lay low, sell off all you have, and hide the proceeds and lay low assetless as possible until this whole thing blows over or what?

[mmasters]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bug', '
')If it is true the US government is 49 trillion dollars in the hole to the bankers and bondholders for monies borrowed, not including interest, then they will turn to taxpayer to pay their keepers. Taxpayers are their assets, and if the taxpayer can't pay, they will go after the property that taxpayer owns. Ultimately, everything you own in collateral to that 49 trillion debt. And that doesn't even include the fact your local property and state taxes will go up because those governments borrowed money as well and are also in the hole.

So think about it what would be the best course of action for someone who wants to prepare, with the above scenario in mind?

[kokoda]

A few years after peakoil assets will be useless.

There will be empty houses, deserted cars, and useless electronic goods for all.

[Mesuge]

Very interesting thread.
Look at the history. If your production capacity is being constrained and shrinking, i.e. in post PO world by expensive energy and no commercial credit you can expect a similar situation in some aspects as in the Stalinist Russia and/or after the US stock crash in the 30s..

Cities> more people living on fewer m2 space. The most efficient buildings for the elite, the somewhat efficient dwellings for the rest, and the deserted factories, walmarts and old "projects" for the squatting punks and other outlaws

Country> collectivization of small farm equipment and land. What Stalin did by force - in fact US bankers did accomplish by smart financial schemes. This would intesify.

The 1mil question is whether the general public in the west will fight the system or run for protection by the system. I'd would say that given the low intensity protest up to this date definately the first phase would be a fascist regime and as it later fails to deliver due to the mighty powers of depletion curve it will further desintegrate into smaller authoritarian units based on the local conditions. For instance, more agrarian chunks or more left over industrial areas.

Think about the Duncan's points on the right side of the curve where the civilization fall is stoped for a while before further downfall.

That's how it went in the history, be it the late Roman empire or the central american civilizations etc..

So, any generalization how to proceed on individual basis are quite futile. You can thrive as some ruthless apartchik or on the other hand as some regional insurgency warlord or get caught in the middle as John Doe, the bystander.

Therefore my personal advice would be, as the system goes down enjoy it, the sparks will be all over..

[MD]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Mesuge', '.')..So, any generalization how to proceed on individual basis are quite futile...

[Cloud9]

To attempt to disarm us would be a mistake. To attempt to do it by force would be a real big mistake. A lot of us don’t live in big cities. Waco, while a tragedy for those involved, was in fact a victory for gun owners. Had it gone the way the feds had hoped, it would have been but one of a long train of raids and arms seizures. As it turned out, it stopped the seizure agenda in its tracks. Lesson learned: Shooting up churches and killing kids does not play well in Middle America.

[Falconoffury]

By the time the government starts seizing property for food or ethanol production, it will be the beginning of the end. Get your survival gear together and head for the hills, lest you yourself be seized for slave labor.

If you're just worried about zombies, make sure you get land far from population centers. Stay near towns that are small enough to be supported by local food production.

[AgentR]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cloud9', 'T')o attempt to disarm us would be a mistake. To attempt to do it by force would be a real big mistake. A lot of us don’t live in big cities..

[Denny]

If you are an American, I guess you'd say no. Many recommendations here deal with putting goods aside for a calamity.

But, back in 1933, President Roosevelt ordered all gold seized. This was done, not with a direct act of Congress, but by invoking a clause of the 1917 Trading with the Enemy Act. See here: The Confiscation Order. What is also vile is that he did not even have the guts to write the namne of the Act in question within the executive order, guessing logically, that the public would have seen it as outside the intended bounds.

Ultimately, the IRS was ordered to seal and then inspect bank safety deposit boxes.

This seems like the kind of thing one would expect in a dictatorship, like a Communist country, or Venezuela under Hugo Chavez. But, it happened in America!

What would be to stop a future U.S. government from seizing energy resources or food commodities in storage?

[TommyJefferson]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Denny', 'W')hat would be to stop a future U.S. government from seizing energy resources or food commodities in storage?

[roccman]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Denny', '
')
What would be to stop a future U.S. government from seizing energy resources or food commodities in storage?

[Ludi]

I recommend appearing to have no assets to speak of. Don't flounce around. Fly under the radar.


That is my advice for all of this, for now and the future.

Don't flounce.

[efarmer]

You watched your government at the very height of the
American Empire and with the most reactionary and impulsive
government it has been able to conjure in modern times
botch Katrina. If you wish to think so doomer then let's play the
game with scale like it would be. The remnants of a central
government will be talking to each other in guarded compounds
while local chaos or local order exists in a dynamically shifting
polka dot pattern across the American landscape. You are
conjuring a central Hollywood bogeyman for a cameo that
will be filled by brutish gang and mob actions and opposed by
ad hoc community efforts. Besides Dennis Hopper will be to
old to run this government by then. Another factor to consider
is a bunch of blooded Iraq military vets getting orders to move against their own people by an elite leadership faction. I believe they would slay them before they issued the second page of the
orders.

I think a browning out to a miserable and relatively peaceful
shittiness like the Great Depression without oil in the ground
to drive away from itself is much more likely. And keep your
weapons small caliber, like 22 caliber. The bigger calibers
tear the rat up so bad that they don't stay on the barbecue
rack worth a damn.