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RIP Habeas Corpus

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Re: RIP Habeas Corpus

Unread postby Last_Laff » Wed 18 Oct 2006, 12:59:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dukey', 'A')merica is no longer a free country.

At defunct theory... it never was a free country.

People was blind by greed at the beginning.
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Re: RIP Habeas Corpus

Unread postby eXpat » Fri 20 Oct 2006, 19:57:17

Following the nazi comparison, now you have as well your own concentration camps with incinerators and all!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0P-hvPJPTi4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9Ut-t7k ... ed&search=
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Re: RIP Habeas Corpus

Unread postby SchroedingersCat » Fri 20 Oct 2006, 20:31:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')mendment I - Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Unless any of those actions cause you to be seen as an enemy combatant.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')mendment II - A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

See above. Also, not many guns allowed in secret prisons.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')mendment III - No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.

Probably doesn't apply.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')mendment IV - The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Patriot Act took care of most of this one. The MCA finished it off.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')mendment V - No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Poof!
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')mendment VI - In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.

Bye-bye.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')mendment VII - In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

Maybe this one stays. But trial by jury is sooo 20th century now.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')mendment VIII - Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
Bail? C'mon. Plus cruel and unusual are now defined by the executive.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')mendment IX - The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
Everybody has rights. The Constitution is just pointing out some favorites. You can't take any of them away.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')mendment X - The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.
The US can't pass laws like the MCA. Not without changing the Constitution. Bye-bye, Bill of Rights. We hardly knew ye.
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Re: RIP Habeas Corpus

Unread postby The_Toecutter » Fri 20 Oct 2006, 20:54:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')atriot Act took care of most of this one. The MCA finished it off.


You forgot the War on Drugs.
The unnecessary felling of a tree, perhaps the old growth of centuries, seems to me a crime little short of murder. ~Thomas Jefferson
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Re: RIP Habeas Corpus

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Fri 20 Oct 2006, 21:10:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The_Toecutter', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')atriot Act took care of most of this one. The MCA finished it off.


You forgot the War on Drugs.
right. the rise of paramilitary swat teams and storm trooper tactics to serve simple drug warrants is disturbing, as are the asset forfeiture laws which are a major impetus to police corruption. Have you read about the Case Of Cory Maye? Innocent kid down in Mississippi who is on Death Row for shooting a cop that was doing a late night SWAT type break in to his apartment. You won't believe it. Total miscarriage of justice that shows how bad the situation is. This is far more of a threat than the latest legal maneuvers in Washington over the treatment of terrorists.
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Re: RIP Habeas Corpus

Unread postby The_Toecutter » Fri 20 Oct 2006, 21:25:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')his is far more of a threat than the latest legal maneuvers in Washington over the treatment of terrorists.


Hardly. The threats aren't really different in size, just different in their general constitution...

Both are examples of America becoming a corporate-run version of the government depicted in Orwell's 1984.
The unnecessary felling of a tree, perhaps the old growth of centuries, seems to me a crime little short of murder. ~Thomas Jefferson
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Re: RIP Habeas Corpus

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Fri 20 Oct 2006, 22:00:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The_Toecutter', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')his is far more of a threat than the latest legal maneuvers in Washington over the treatment of terrorists.


Hardly. The threats aren't really different in size, just different in their general constitution...

Both are examples of America becoming a corporate-run version of the government depicted in Orwell's 1984.
Have you actually read 1984? Sure doesn't sound like it.
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Re: RIP Habeas Corpus

Unread postby NEOPO » Fri 20 Oct 2006, 22:23:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('emailking', 'H')ow does it erase the Bill of rights? I don't see anything about habeas corpus in the first 10 Ammendements. All I can find is that it is the result of a court order.


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Re: RIP Habeas Corpus

Unread postby The_Toecutter » Fri 20 Oct 2006, 22:34:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')ave you actually read 1984? Sure doesn't sound like it.


Yes. In grade school.

Perhaps you need to take a look at just what our government has been doing as of late if you don't see the similarilities between the government depicted in the novel and the recent legislation passed by and the proposals of our current government. We aren't there yet, but we are headed in that direction.

Lets note the more glaring similarities:

-perpetual war. The U.S. has constantly been at war or engaged in an armed conflict with another nation since WWII. In the novel, the state depicted remained constantly at war with some vague enemy that changed every so often.

-editing of government documents. The U.S. has edited transcripts of the words of our president, censored and/or documents pertaining to climate change, reclassified intelligence of a threat that existed prior to 911, and financial data pertaining to companies like Halliburton or pertaining to Bush's earlier financial actions has been revised. This is quite similar to the actions taken by the Ministry of Truth throught the novel.

-surveillance. The 4th amendment has been eroded by the war on drugs and various surveillance tactics put in place after. ameras are becoming very commonplace, the government has granted itself to tap phone lines as it sees fit, programs like Echelon scour the internet for material the governments of the world find threatening, an attempt by the Bush admin to put a citizen spying program into place was made(Operation TIPS), and the government has granted itself the ability to monitor library usage, internet usage, and other data. That ever watchful eye of big brother is beginning to open towards the direction of U.S. citizens. We may not have a telescreen in each home yet, but we're getting there, at least on a symbolic basis.

Other similarities include legalized torture, manipulation of the media, and an ever present military force(eg. militarized police in America's case, implemented during the war on drugs).
The unnecessary felling of a tree, perhaps the old growth of centuries, seems to me a crime little short of murder. ~Thomas Jefferson
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Re: RIP Habeas Corpus

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Fri 20 Oct 2006, 23:13:29

OK, a cogent argument. I can respect that. The Cold War was like a perpetual war indeed. There was an insidious revolutionary/nihilistc movement which we were fighting. As for the editing of government documents, that doesn't come close, for me at least, to the depiction of thought control, totalitarian and frightening, in Orwell's vision of a complete, absolute effort by The Party to shrink mental/linguistic horizons of language. That was Orwell's major theme. He wrote a lot about the degradation of language in his essays as well. The spooky thing about it in the novel was the patterning of it after the practice of Stalinism in The Soviet Union. It was this patterning after Soviet Russia that really gets to the heart of my critique of the recurrent theme of many here in this forum that the US is moving towards Totalitarianism.
In my younger days, I read everything I could get my hands on about Totalitarianism, Russian and German both, from the libraries. Have you done that Toecutter? I can't see how anyone who is versed in real Totalitarianism can even begin to think that we here and now in the US are living under anything like such conditions as those. We have a lot of problems of the societal breakdown variety with people being lost and unhappy, but that is something very different altogether. A different kettle of fish that I suspect will get worse before it gets better, if it ever gets better at all. But psychologically projecting our problems onto the Government as if that was where our problems come from is no use, just a symptom is all that is.
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Re: RIP Habeas Corpus

Unread postby TITAN » Sat 21 Oct 2006, 00:18:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Roy', 'W')hat the myopic supporters of the MCA don't seem to take into account is:

This law benefits them right now (in some obtruse way that I'm sure I could figure out if I watched Foxnews). But what if a D wins the presidency in 08, and decides to use it to round up people with firearms? Or people who are anti-gay? Or whatever goes against their liberal agenda?

The point is that the President and the SecDef decide what is an enemy combatant and what the apporpriate punishment is for that crime.

I feel this amount of power in the hands of two people goes against everything American. It would be supreme irony if that happened and said legislation backfired against those that supported it. Remeber that this law won't go away when W is living in exile in Paraguay.

I hope the Supreme Court has the intestinal fortitude to reject this piece of shit.



Seeing as how something like this is passed virtually unnoticed to the us population, what makes you think this country won't do anything when W decides not to leave office?

Even if W does decide to leave (which I doubt), Diebold will ensure the next one is the perfect predecessor...

Sheeple will think Hillary will make a difference because it's a she AND a D...

She is just as much a neocon chicken-hawk as the morons currently in power...

The war will only end when the american people truly rise up against the tyrrany...Probably never.


The day W starts his third term may be the day the us realizes what has happened; and it will be FAAAR too late...
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Re: RIP Habeas Corpus

Unread postby The_Toecutter » Sat 21 Oct 2006, 03:38:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')s for the editing of government documents, that doesn't come close, for me at least, to the depiction of thought control, totalitarian and frightening, in Orwell's vision of a complete, absolute effort by The Party to shrink mental/linguistic horizons of language.


We're not that far gone.

Editing of government documents and outright thought control are two seperate characteristics. The U.S. currently engages in the lesser one of them; Orwell's depicted society engages in both.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hat was Orwell's major theme. He wrote a lot about the degradation of language in his essays as well. The spooky thing about it in the novel was the patterning of it after the practice of Stalinism in The Soviet Union. It was this patterning after Soviet Russia that really gets to the heart of my critique of the recurrent theme of many here in this forum that the US is moving towards Totalitarianism.


Your critique is either valid or flawed depending on what definition is inferred. Are you referring to a system of government, or are you referring to an ideology?

Many on the PO forums are quite clearly referring to the latter as they talk about our government in a state of transition and they discuss it in reference to a series of actions, as opposed to an absolute state of being.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n my younger days, I read everything I could get my hands on about Totalitarianism, Russian and German both, from the libraries. Have you done that Toecutter?


I can't say I have read about the subject to this sort of extent, but I have studied it.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') can't see how anyone who is versed in real Totalitarianism can even begin to think that we here and now in the US are living under anything like such conditions as those.


The definition of totalitarianism as an ideology is explained nicely by philosopher Roger Scruton in his well researched article, The Root of Totalitarianism.

Totalitarian ideology is the system of ideas and doctrines that justify and normalize the totalitarian form of government, usually by representing it as the reign of justice, maybe even as the 'final solution' to a social problem that can be solved in no other way.

Clearly, on that definition, totalitarian government is a matter of degree. A government may be to some extent constrained by law, even if able to overrule the law in special cases; it may present itself behind the mask of a constitution, even if the constitution is of only limited effectiveness in reducing its power. The important point is not the extent of the totalitarian lawlessness, but the absence of any fundamental constraint on the central authority, and the assumption that every aspect of society, however remote from the normal concerns of government, is one over which the central government can, should it choose, exert control.

As a matter of degree, one could argue that the U.S. is in the transitionary stage to totalitarianism and possesses characteristics in common with a totalitarian government.

The U.S. government is normally supposed to be constrained by law, but has repeatedly overruled it and/or outright violated it. This has occured with the UN Charter the U.S. agreed to adhere to, most recently with the War in Iraq, and has also occured with the Geneva conventions in regard to torture. It hides behind a Constitution that it no longer upholds. One only needs to look at older examples pertaining to the War on Drugs or more recent examples pertaining to the War on Terror to see this. The 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th amendments have been or are being gutted depending on which one that is referred to.

This arguement that the U.S. is descending into totalitarianism would be quite valid.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')e have a lot of problems of the societal breakdown variety with people being lost and unhappy, but that is something very different altogether. A different kettle of fish that I suspect will get worse before it gets better, if it ever gets better at all. But psychologically projecting our problems onto the Government as if that was where our problems come from is no use, just a symptom is all that is.

No one is psychologically projecting their problems onto government. The American people did not choose to allow torture in defiance of international law. The American people did not choose for electronic voting machines, lacking a paper trail, to be put in place. The American people did not initiate the War on Drugs and subsequently jail 1 million non-violent drug users. Nor did they initiate the War on Terror. The American people did not kill over 100,000 noncombatant Iraq civilians.

In all cases, these deeds were done by their government and these actions were implemented by their government. Whether the American people had a chance to approve of them or not came after the decisions were already made by those within our government.
The unnecessary felling of a tree, perhaps the old growth of centuries, seems to me a crime little short of murder. ~Thomas Jefferson
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Re: RIP Habeas Corpus

Unread postby max_power29 » Mon 23 Oct 2006, 04:26:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '
')You forgot the War on Drugs. the rise of paramilitary swat teams and storm trooper tactics to serve simple drug warrants is disturbing, as are the asset forfeiture laws which are a major impetus to police corruption. Have you read about the Case Of Cory Maye? Innocent kid down in Mississippi who is on Death Row for shooting a cop that was doing a late night SWAT type break in to his apartment. You won't believe it. Total miscarriage of justice that shows how bad the situation is. This is far more of a threat than the latest legal maneuvers in Washington over the treatment of terrorists.


I'm glad that son of a bitch, jack-booted thug, Ron Jones was killed. Kudos to Corey Maye for defending his private residence from these assholes.
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