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US free speech row grows (The Guardian)

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Does American society restricts freedom of speech to silence criticism Israel?

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US free speech row grows (The Guardian)

Unread postby Miki » Sun 15 Oct 2006, 18:27:46

I've read several news articles in the last 3 years showing the censorship that anyone who wants to criticize the government of Israel experiences in the US. Professors at renowned American universities have been harassed by other professors/university officials, journalists have received death threats and tons of hate mail, embassies have cancelled talks by critics of Israel, and authorities have put pressure on universities to "shut up" talks or courses criticizing Israel...It seems American free speech does not include criticizing the state of Israel. Some examples:

US free speech row grows as author says Jewish complaints stopped launch party

Ed Pilkington in New York
Wednesday October 11, 2006
The Guardian

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he British-based author and former publisher Carmen Callil has become embroiled in a growing dispute over the limits of freedom of speech in America after a party celebrating her new book on Vichy France was cancelled because of the opinion she expresses about the modern state of Israel.

The row over Callil's book is the latest element in a dispute about restrictions on freedom of speech in the US in relation to comments on Israel.

A British-born academic based at New York University has had two speaking engagements called off after criticism of his views. Tony Judt, an American Jew who was brought up in Britain, was due to speak on the subject of the influence of the pro-Israeli lobby on US foreign policy and at a separate location under the title War and Genocide in European Memory Today. The first lecture was cancelled by the Polish consulate in New York, which owned the venue, while Mr Judt pulled out of the second after he was asked by the organisers to refrain from direct references to Israel. In both cases pro-Israeli organisations and individuals had raised objections to Mr Judt's views on Israel.


The Guardian

Other links: Daniel Pipes has this organization called "Campus Watch", which basically monitors the departments of Middle Eastern Studies in the US to make sure professors present views that do not "go against American interests". They believe that many American universities need to control the lectures better to make sure everything is "patriotic". In order to achieve its mission, Campus Watch publishes articles in the media defaming professors, puts online "professors dossiers" showing their versions of the black listed professors' work, does its best to persuade students not to take certain classes, and harasses both professors and university authorities. This has resulted in defamation incidents, and careers' damages of the best McCarthynist tradition.

Here's Campus Watch and some of their current harassment campaigns against university professors:

[web]http://www.campus-watch.org/[/web]

Here are some links of the debates that Campus Watch had with renowned American professors:

Campus Watch

Campus Watch
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Re: US free speech row grows (The Guardian)

Unread postby AgentR » Sun 15 Oct 2006, 18:44:31

Universities generally don't like either side making a fuss. Go ask a hardcore pro-Israeli group about their experience when setting up tables at events and stuff.

You poke at Israel, you get censured.
You poke at the palenstinians, you get censured.

Shut up and nod... you may proceed to the degree or paycheck table as appropriate.
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Re: US free speech row grows (The Guardian)

Unread postby JustinFrankl » Sun 15 Oct 2006, 22:59:17

The poll question as printed makes no sense. I cast my vote for "tuna sandwich".
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Re: US free speech row grows (The Guardian)

Unread postby threadbear » Mon 16 Oct 2006, 00:31:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR', 'U')niversities generally don't like either side making a fuss. Go ask a hardcore pro-Israeli group about their experience when setting up tables at events and stuff.

You poke at Israel, you get censured.
You poke at the palenstinians, you get censured.

Shut up and nod... you may proceed to the degree or paycheck table as appropriate.



Yes, but let's take a closer look at that, shall we. The sources of censure, for both, arise out of an entirely different body of social and political mores, one for the anti-Palestinian, one for the anti- Israel. I would say the politically correct crowd, who are sensitive to anything remotely racist, would raise a stink about agitating against a vulnerable minority, like the Palestinians.

On the other hand, you have pro-fascist, pro-Zionist forces that champion and promote the pro-Israel point of view, to further an agenda of expansionism, in the Middle East.

They wish to do so, without any real academic debate, and will try to frame the issue, in just such a way as you have. The old moral equivalency bunk. You're smart AgentR, but not nearly smart enough. You'll need to do a little better than Propaganda 101 for this crowd.
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Re: US free speech row grows (The Guardian)

Unread postby threadbear » Mon 16 Oct 2006, 00:33:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JustinFrankl', 'T')he poll question as printed makes no sense. I cast my vote for "tuna sandwich".


What are you talking about, and why the use of ridicule to cast aspersions on the question?
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Re: US free speech row grows (The Guardian)

Unread postby JustinFrankl » Mon 16 Oct 2006, 09:20:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JustinFrankl', 'T')he poll question as printed makes no sense. I cast my vote for "tuna sandwich".


What are you talking about, and why the use of ridicule to cast aspersions on the question?

If the issue is serious, the least amount of trouble to which someone can go is to have the poll question be coherent. Throwing some controversy-laden words together which only vaguely resemble an actual question indicates either flippancy, or a lack of concern, or an attempt to foment dissent, or just plain having smoked too much crack.
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Re: US free speech row grows (The Guardian)

Unread postby threadbear » Mon 16 Oct 2006, 14:43:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JustinFrankl', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JustinFrankl', 'T')he poll question as printed makes no sense. I cast my vote for "tuna sandwich".


What are you talking about, and why the use of ridicule to cast aspersions on the question?

If the issue is serious, the least amount of trouble to which someone can go is to have the poll question be coherent. Throwing some controversy-laden words together which only vaguely resemble an actual question indicates either flippancy, or a lack of concern, or an attempt to foment dissent, or just plain having smoked too much crack.


Are we looking at the same question? It's a bit on the vague side, granted. Would you rather it read: "Do fascists and Zionists control the media and suppress opinion on the nation's campuses?"
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Re: US free speech row grows (The Guardian)

Unread postby AgentR » Mon 16 Oct 2006, 14:52:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'T')hey wish to do so, without any real academic debate, and will try to frame the issue, in just such a way as you have. The old moral equivalency bunk. You're smart AgentR, but not nearly smart enough. You'll need to do a little better than Propaganda 101 for this crowd.


I don't object in any way to the polite academic debates.

I object to the physical prevention of any point of views' clear expression. I don't want the pro-palestinian view point interfered with, and I don't want the pro-israeli view interfered with. Regardless of who you think the bad guys are in the debate, they both deserve to be free of fear as a result of expressing their viewpoints.

When one party feels free to rip up materials, steal stuff, and shout people down, THAT is intolerance, and pretending otherwise simply falls into the trap of "freedom of speech, but only for speech we like".

Its wrong and its unethical.

Under no circumstance do I assert moral equivalency between the two groups of views, only their right to expression without fear.
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Re: US free speech row grows (The Guardian)

Unread postby threadbear » Mon 16 Oct 2006, 15:10:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'T')hey wish to do so, without any real academic debate, and will try to frame the issue, in just such a way as you have. The old moral equivalency bunk. You're smart AgentR, but not nearly smart enough. You'll need to do a little better than Propaganda 101 for this crowd.


I don't object in any way to the polite academic debates.

I object to the physical prevention of any point of views' clear expression. I don't want the pro-palestinian view point interfered with, and I don't want the pro-israeli view interfered with. Regardless of who you think the bad guys are in the debate, they both deserve to be free of fear as a result of expressing their viewpoints.

When one party feels free to rip up materials, steal stuff, and shout people down, THAT is intolerance, and pretending otherwise simply falls into the trap of "freedom of speech, but only for speech we like".

Its wrong and its unethical.

Under no circumstance do I assert moral equivalency between the two groups of views, only their right to expression without fear.


Not so fast, my friend. Again, you are twisting the meaning of the thread. Miki has posted about lobbies, special interest groups, and "think tanks" bearing down on individuals by pressuring the institutions they work for. A pro-Israeli group setting up a table at a protest or lecture, on campus and being harrassed as a result in no way compares with the effectiveness of the softer forms of coercion.

She has provided an example of this non-violent form of suppression of opinion, by linking to "Middle East Watch". So the thread is about denying groups or individuals any kind of format, platform, from which to speak from campuses around the US.
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Re: US free speech row grows (The Guardian)

Unread postby AgentR » Mon 16 Oct 2006, 15:15:50

Miki likes to selectively cherry-pick concepts to fit an ideal, I like to come in behind and poke the cherry-pick to reveal how both groups get hosed by different methodologies.

And I think both forms of supression are wrong.
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Re: US free speech row grows (The Guardian)

Unread postby threadbear » Mon 16 Oct 2006, 15:27:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR', 'M')iki likes to selectively cherry-pick concepts to fit an ideal, I like to come in behind and poke the cherry-pick to reveal how both groups get hosed by different methodologies.

And I think both forms of supression are wrong.


Let's rewrite this, to make it clearer to the readers.

"Miki uses her head. When she sees a pattern of behaviour, that can be supported, with the use of links, to websites that outline and describe that behaviour, she provides the links for us.

I like to come in from behind, change the context of the discussion and poke holes in her "cherry picking" using the insincere posture of the "diplomat who sees both sides of the situation".

By implying equal social influence and power to the pro-Israeli and pro-Palestinian side, I have attempted to dilute the substance of her remarks"

Any idiot reading the website can see what's going on, AgentR. It's not like a "secret conspiracy". It's publicly stated policy on this site. So please, try not to get on our nerves.
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Re: US free speech row grows (The Guardian)

Unread postby AgentR » Mon 16 Oct 2006, 15:45:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'B')y implying equal social influence and power to the pro-Israeli and pro-Palestinian side, I have attempted to dilute the substance of her remarks"


I don't imply any equality really. The Israeli's clearly have the upper hand in the US; as evidenced by the most recent congressional votes in support of Israeli actions. But just because they have the majority support doesn't imply that they aren't subject to various forms of intimidation on campus.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')ny idiot reading the website can see what's going on, AgentR. It's not like a "secret conspiracy"


I'm not attempting to hide anything.
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Re: US free speech row grows (The Guardian)

Unread postby threadbear » Mon 16 Oct 2006, 15:56:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'B')y implying equal social influence and power to the pro-Israeli and pro-Palestinian side, I have attempted to dilute the substance of her remarks"


I don't imply any equality really. The Israeli's clearly have the upper hand in the US; as evidenced by the most recent congressional votes in support of Israeli actions. But just because they have the majority support doesn't imply that they aren't subject to various forms of intimidation on campus.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')ny idiot reading the website can see what's going on, AgentR. It's not like a "secret conspiracy"


I'm not attempting to hide anything.


I was unclear. My "not a conspiracy remark" had to do with the linked "middle East Watch". It's certainly not a conspiracy, but a well funded policy to hound alternative opionion right out of mainstream--and now academic discourse.

Thank you for your honesty in the last post, and I agree the Zionist crowd (and I strongly differentiate between Zionists and Israelis, who are as much victim of corrupt leaders,as anyone else) definitely have been hounded on campus. It's not right, but somewhat understandable.
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Re: US free speech row grows (The Guardian)

Unread postby AgentR » Mon 16 Oct 2006, 16:05:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'I') was unclear. My "not a conspiracy remark" had to do with the linked "middle East Watch". It's certainly not a conspiracy, but a well funded policy to hound alternative opionion right out of mainstream--and now academic discourse.


Now the question is, can you also reach the "somewhat understandable" position for the Middle East Watch guys. They remember how the Vietnamese were able to gain the upper hand in American public opinion, and that is what essentially defeated the US by ratcheting up ever greater restrictions on their ability to fight in Vietnam.

The Israeli's do not want to lose the upper hand in the US. So it is understandable that they would persue, to the limit of their strength, any opposition to their position.

I think both are understandable, I think the Israeli's are currently winning, and I wish they would BOTH cut out the intimidation and interference tactics. (Even though I don't expect either of them to do that, they are, after all, locked in a battle for national survival that only one side can win.)
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Re: US free speech row grows (The Guardian)

Unread postby threadbear » Mon 16 Oct 2006, 22:20:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'I') was unclear. My "not a conspiracy remark" had to do with the linked "middle East Watch". It's certainly not a conspiracy, but a well funded policy to hound alternative opionion right out of mainstream--and now academic discourse.


Now the question is, can you also reach the "somewhat understandable" position for the Middle East Watch guys. They remember how the Vietnamese were able to gain the upper hand in American public opinion, and that is what essentially defeated the US by ratcheting up ever greater restrictions on their ability to fight in Vietnam.

The Israeli's do not want to lose the upper hand in the US. So it is understandable that they would persue, to the limit of their strength, any opposition to their position.

I think both are understandable, I think the Israeli's are currently winning, and I wish they would BOTH cut out the intimidation and interference tactics. (Even though I don't expect either of them to do that, they are, after all, locked in a battle for national survival that only one side can win.)


No, the Vietnamese didn't gain an upper hand in the war for public opinion. To infer that the VietNamese, the NORTH Vietnamese had a slick lobby working for them in the US is hilarious beyond description.

The image of American colonels raping, killing and then gutting Vietnamese women, began to dominate the consciousness of decent Americans. It was WHAT gained the upperhand, not who. Basic human decency eventually won out, and the Americans limped home. Also, 500,000 American draftees failed to report for duty and fragging of senior officers became commonplace.

The Israelis don't want to lose the upper hand in the US? You mean as far as public opinion goes? Let's rephrase that. Zionist expansionists manipulate and propagandize, using the machinery of American institutions. This has become so effective that they now threaten the very independance of the US.
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