[rwwff]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', 'O')k here's some average home prices throughout the states...

US average= 225,000$

The West= 345,000$
North-East 270,000$
Midwest 177,000$
South 183,000$

[Tyler_JC]

Spending
Average household annually spends $38,045.

Breakdown of household spending.

Food- $5,435 (13%)
Healthcare- $2,120 (5%)
Housing- $12,527 (31%)
Entertainment- $1,958 (5%)
Utilities- $2,487 (6%)
Insurance/Pension- $4,308 (10%)
Apparel and services- $2,004 (5%)
Cash Contributions- $1,344 (3%)
Transportation- $7,568 (19%)

Breakdown of household spending

The average household has around 3 people.

On a monthly basis, these numbers don't seem to work.

The solution is clearly to cut transportation costs dramatically in order to pay for the extra housing, health care, and energy costs that we face today.

As a side note, that 10% pension figure includes social security because technically speaking, it is a pension plan. A terribly expensive and unreliable pension plan.

[thuja]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', '
')
However, I have never challenged the notion that it is "way more difficult" to manage. Of course its more difficult. It is not however, impossible.

[Tyler_JC]

As a reminder, places where housing is insane tend to have much higher incomes than the national average.

The median household in San Fran is over $57,000 a year (more than 40% higher than the median household used in the previous article).

Granted, housing costs are significantly higher than 40% the national average.

So the transportation figure must come down to compensate.

San Francisco has the advantage of being a rather infertile city. Only 14% of the city's population is under 15 compared to 20% for the country as a whole, so the child-raising costs are lower.

I don't know, something is keeping these high cost areas afloat. The coming housing bust will either make these places affordable again or they will lose population to cheaper locations.

[ClubOfRomeII]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', '
')
Conservatives are so crazy sometimes. They LOOOOVE to blame poor people for their bad lifestyle choices. Rwwff and CORII, stop blaming poor and middle class for their "mistakes" and start realizing that we live in a different world from our parent's generation.

[rwwff]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', 'O')f course its more difficult. It is not however, impossible.

[ClubOfRomeII]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', '
')
I've never had anything other than second/third hand furniture. My filing cabinet has to be at least 60 years old, my desk is an abandoned 6ftx3ft door with legs, dressers and tv cabinet are older than me.
.

[ClubOfRomeII]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', '
')
Something went really, realy wrong in the 80s, and I'm not sure I understand what it was.

[WildRose]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', ' ') Not really been much of a runup. House appraises at about $120k now. Its a bit under 1500sf, its nearing its 40th birthday. Guess what. It works fine.

Its still no sweat to get a decent, functional house for under $100k. Will all your friends come over and say, "oooohh, ahhhhh", nope.

[rwwff]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('WildRose', 'Y')ou're absolutely right, Rwwff, we could find a comparable house for quite a bit less (maybe 150 to 175K) in a smaller, more remote community. But what about the job prospects there? A person's financial situation doesn't change much if they buy a less expensive home in a small town and then bring home only one-half the income.

[thuja]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', '
')

My point in these various arguments is that we are inflicting serious economic harm on these people because of our social expectations about how they should try to live.

There are still ways in America to make a $35k / yr family work, and work modestly well; but we are all way to embarrased about it to get these people out of slavery to $1000 apartments and day care, and into stable, less expensive homes, lower power and cost living, etc.

Maybe my town would be considered less than "perfect" or "pristine" by the typical suburban home buyer; but there are plenty of recent mexican immigrant families within walking distance of me, living perfectly reasonable lives; they shop in the same stores as I do; and they are doing exactly what I suggested above. Their families are stable and happy, mom cooks more food than they could ever possibly eat, all from scratch, dad brings in $25k - $35k; he rides a beat up mountain bike or walks to work. There's usually a truck involved for more serious things, but its usually ten years old and only gets used when its needed.

They make it work and work well because they have not been beaten about the head and shoulders about how they are REQUIRED to live, or what home arrangements are APPROPRIATE.

[rwwff]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', 'R')enting a 1000$ apartment is not about luxury, its about necessity for many many people.

[drew]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', '[')b]Spending
Average household annually spends $38,045.

Breakdown of household spending.

Food- $5,435 (13%)
Healthcare- $2,120 (5%)
Housing- $12,527 (31%)
Entertainment- $1,958 (5%)
Utilities- $2,487 (6%)
Insurance/Pension- $4,308 (10%)
Apparel and services- $2,004 (5%)
Cash Contributions- $1,344 (3%)
Transportation- $7,568 (19%)

Breakdown of household spending

[Tyler_JC]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('drew', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', '[')b]Spending
Average household annually spends $38,045.

Breakdown of household spending.

Food- $5,435 (13%)
Healthcare- $2,120 (5%)
Housing- $12,527 (31%)
Entertainment- $1,958 (5%)
Utilities- $2,487 (6%)
Insurance/Pension- $4,308 (10%)
Apparel and services- $2,004 (5%)
Cash Contributions- $1,344 (3%)
Transportation- $7,568 (19%)

Breakdown of household spending

[ClubOfRomeII]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', '
')
If only Americans would be willing to drop that transportation figure! You have realized the benefits of being economical in your travels, but Americans refuse to give up their big cars. Did you know that the average car loan is something like $26,000? It's crazy.:

[WildRose]

I was thinking about all this debate about affordable housing, and it occurred to me that new standards of cohabitation may be in the future for many people.

In the lower middle class neighborhood where I live, where small bungalows now sell for $250 to 300K, some of the homes have been sold and are being rented out. The rent on these 3 bedroom homes is about $1600/month, not including utilities. These homes each have about 7 cars parked in front of them on a regular basis - that's how many adults live in each home, and there are a few children also. Some of the adults are related, some are friends, but they rent one home because that's the only way they can afford to live in the city. They moved to the city because there weren't any jobs in the smaller towns they left.

[alpha480v]

This has been an enjoyable thread. Thanks to all who have contibuted!

If I can add anything, it would be that where you live is a big detrmining factor in the amount of money that is left over for saving or investing.The cost of living is relative to your location.

Several people have posted the costs of living from their locations that certainly don't apply to the rest of the country. Where I'm at here in western NY, $750 a month will get you a whole house, utilities included!
$1000 a month for food?

I pay $450 a month for a spacious 2 bedroom apartment, utilities included.Food around $450 a month.

[WildRose]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('alpha480v', 'T')his has been an enjoyable thread. Thanks to all who have contibuted!

If I can add anything, it would be that where you live is a big detrmining factor in the amount of money that is left over for saving or investing.The cost of living is relative to your location.

Several people have posted the costs of living from their locations that certainly don't apply to the rest of the country. Where I'm at here in western NY, $750 a month will get you a whole house, utilities included!
$1000 a month for food?

I pay $450 a month for a spacious 2 bedroom apartment, utilities included.Food around $450 a month.

[drew]

No, Wildrose, I posted a thou a month for food too. I also have 3 teens.

We do eat a pile of meat though; I bet it is 20 or 30 bucks a week easily. We buy cheaper cuts mostly because we have a slow cooker which works miracles. Steak is an occasional treat since it would be 30 bucks for just one meal.

We also buy a fair bit of sweets mostly because I spoil the kids. They are all scrawny anyways so I am not worried about their weight.

I nag them 'eat, eat, here, have more!'

Drew

[kenohio]

I think a lot of jobs pay less than what they did in the past in inflation adjusted dollars. Plus more and more jobs require an expensive college degree than were required in the past. And a lot of very good paying manufacturing jobs have been lost to overseas markets. All helping to hold down wages in the US.

That has led many people that were accustomed to having a middle class income and lifestyle to slip out of the middle class, even if they don't really realize the fact. It happens slowly as their wages stay the same but the prices of everything around them move up. Gradually their paychecks just don't go as far as they used to go, and if they want to continue living at the same level they were accustomed to they must either earn more money or borrow to fill in the gaps between earnings and expenditures.

Quite simply they no longer earn enough to be considered middle class, but are still trying to hold onto the lifestyle through debt instead of earnings. Eventually it will catch up to them. The fact that wages have been stagnent for years and inflation hasn't is a real issue that has helped to drag many people out of the middle class, but you don't get a letter in the mail that says "We are sorry to inform you that you no longer qualify for membership in the middle class. Welcome to the lower middle class or lower class."

It is very difficult to come to terms with the fact that whatever we earn is not going to be enough to support what we would consider a normal American lifestyle. Not only is it difficult, but down right painful and depressing. And what some have described here as ways to live within ones income it isn't really that appealing to most of us, because quite honestly it isn't how we feel a middle class American should be living. Which is true, it isn't the middle class lifestyle most of us picture. The two cars, nice house, two kids, family vacation, computers, large screen tvs, digital cable, video games, cell phones etc.

But it is the lifestyle of the lower middle class, which encompasses far more of us than we would like to admit. What we are seeing kids is the start of the decline in the standard of living in the US.

It might not be obvious yet, but I think for a lot of us we will soon find that we can no longer keep up with our delusion that we are middle class. Or else our perception of the middle class lifestyle will have to be adjusted downward to a level more in line with the past.