[Denny]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('WildRose', 'M')y family is experiencing this as a gradual squeeze: insurance goes up, utilities increase, food costs rise, school fees higher than last year.

My most recent raise: 0.17/hour.

[rwwff]

Core inflation rate does exclude "volatile" food and fuel prices, if I recall correctly. Problem is, they aren't being particularly volatile, they are becoming ascendent. My electricity bill was $100 more per month than last year, and the price per kwh is easily 20% higher; gasoline was a bit higher, and natural gas doesn't really figure in unless we run the furnace in January some.

Food is mostly unchanged for us.

[ClubOfRomeII]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', 'C')ore inflation rate does exclude "volatile" food and fuel prices, if I recall correctly. Problem is, they aren't being particularly volatile, they are becoming ascendent. My electricity bill was $100 more per month than last year, and the price per kwh is easily 20% higher; gasoline was a bit higher, and natural gas doesn't really figure in unless we run the furnace in January some.

Food is mostly unchanged for us.

[WildRose]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Denny', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('WildRose', 'M')y family is experiencing this as a gradual squeeze: insurance goes up, utilities increase, food costs rise, school fees higher than last year.

My most recent raise: 0.17/hour.

[thuja]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ClubOfRomeII', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', '
')
Unlike most people, of COURSE I have thought it through. I know this because according to you, what I'm doing is apparently nearly IMPOSSIBLE!!!

Never thought I would hear of a nuclear family, plus one dog, with a single wage earner, referred to as impossible.

Less likely then it used to be, but I made decisions quite a few years ago to do my best to guarentee "the impossible".

Personal responsibility, years ago, same as today. Nothing has changed, and after 20 years of being subjected to advertising and peer pressure I sure haven't run off and done anything stupid to ruin my "impossible" situation.

Oh yeah, and I have electronic gadgets too.

[rwwff]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', '
')Mortgage+insurance/taxes= 1500$
Utilities= 300$
Food= 600$
Car payment= 250$
School debt= 300$
Daycare= 600$
Retirement= 400$
Gas for car= 150$
Miscellaneous= 500$

CORII- I don't know how much you make but I'm certain it is above the AVERAGE US wage of about 36,000$/yr. I believe that works out to 16.06$/hr. If you look at my basic rundown on the previous page it would be absolutely impossible for a family of four to survive on one man's average US salary....In 1970, it was possible.

[mgibbons19]

that's a pretty scary budget though rrwff.

social security going to be around when we're old?
room for emergency expenses?

Mind you, I'm not criticizing your budget, nor am I silly enough to think that all (or even most?) of those making 100k have an emergency and retirement funds.

Just the reality of hte whole thing is kind of scary.

Again too, it's kind of pointless to assign blame. so what if COR wants to/is able to live like that? The only thing that matters is that the other 299,999,999 Americans are not.

[ClubOfRomeII]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', '
')
CORII- I don't know how much you make but I'm certain it is above the AVERAGE US wage of about 36,000$/yr. I believe that works out to 16.06$/hr. If you look at my basic rundown on the previous page it would be absolutely impossible for a family of four to survive on one man's average US salary....In 1970, it was possible.

[rwwff]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mgibbons19', 't')hat's a pretty scary budget though rrwff.

[ClubOfRomeII]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', '
')As long as it is understood that people are CHOOSING to live thuja's budget, I'm perfectly content. Heck, I'm not even really offended by people carrying $20,000 of debt at 16% - 22% interest; as long as no one pretends some banker went up to them and made them do it.

[thuja]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ClubOfRomeII', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', '
')

I went through your complete budget analysis and thought everything looked quite reasonable. It in no way invalidates my basic premise however, which is that a good, hard look at our individual cost of living is a good thing to do BEFORE buying a $200G house, or ANY car, or ANY borrowing.

[rwwff]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', 'O')k with two kids you need...a three bedroom

[thuja]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', 'O')k with two kids you need...a three bedroom

[rwwff]

I have not blamed anyone; there's nothing to be blamed for.

I disagree with several of your expense items.

I was refuting the use of the word impossible.

What the heck do soccer practice and extracurriculars have to do with impossible. Prom dress!!!! Paying money for haircuts!!! Those are luxury, not essential. I'd live in a cardboard box before I'd pay $200k for a house. (mine cost $98k)

I promise you, Billy and Jane won't die from sleeping in the same room.

The simple fact is that I see families all around my town doing this trick, on much less than this benchmark $36k. Its not pretty, its not luxurious, and doesn't mesh with this bill of goods called the "American Dream"; but it is more than possible, it is not only possible, it is happening right now, within a 2 mile radius of my house there are likely 500+ families doing exactly that.

**PS If I was inclined to blame anyone, I'd blame Hollywierd and pop-culture, but I'm not even much inclined to do that.

[rwwff]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')isc. Cheap clothing from dept. store

[WildRose]

Young families today struggle because it costs so much to meet just their basic needs. As Thuja pointed out, a 2-bedroom apartment (nothing fancy) is easily $800/month, where I live in Canada it's more like $1000/month. And Thuja's right, having a teenage boy and girl in one bedroom is no longer appropriate, though it would be acceptable when they're very young. If a couple wants to buy a modest, 1100 sq. foot bungalow in a city in Alberta right now, they will be looking at $250,000 - even if they have a $50,000 downpayment (and who does?), they'll be mortgaging $200,000. Property taxes will be another $200/month. And you have to have insurance - another $60/month. Average utility costs (including electricity, heating, phone and basic cable TV) are $375/month. All of that just to have the ROOF OVER YOUR HEAD.

My family is in a little better position only because we are older - we bought a 900 sq. foot, basementless bungalow 22 years ago, lived in it for 9 years, used the equity from that home plus the money we made from its appreciated value to move into our modest, 1100 sq. ft. bungalow because we were expecting our third child and needed more room. So, with a fair downpayment on the second house, our mortgage payments are low.

But for someone just starting out? I don't know how people manage. CORII AND RWWFF - just think if you were one of the young couples starting out that was trying to get into a small home, no frills, a home like the one I outlined above. You would very likely have second-hand furniture, older appliances, nothing fancy.

North America is a great place to get an education, if you can afford it. We put money aside for all our kids, starting from the time they were born, so they would be able to get an education without a lot of debt. Now, if mom and dad couldn't afford to put money aside, their children would very likely have to accumulate debt in order to get that education so that they can earn a half-decent living. Now you have to add that debt to your budget, just when you're starting out in your expensive, modest home.

Groceries for our family (of five, three big kids) are easily $1000 per month. This includes all of the paper products, hygiene products, the dog food, cleaning products, etc. I have to budget carefully to get everything we need for $1000 per month, and I can tell you that our meals are often quite frugal.

Recreation is as inexpensive as we can possibly manage. We don't have any expensive recreational activities or sports in our family budget. We hike, swim, visit friends, play catch, skate and toboggan in the winter. We buy only the necessary clothing items and look for sales always, and often get clothing handed down. We have very few gadgets and widgets.

I'm merely trying to point out that it costs A LOT of money to have just the basics these days. I have a lot of empathy for the young couples starting out. I don't advocate taking on any more debt than is necessary, and of course it's great to save for a downpayment on a house if it's possible. But I think that 25 years ago, when my husband and I were saving for our first home, it was a lot easier for us to come up with a downpayment, and house prices were not ridiculous like they are now.

[rwwff]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('WildRose', 'B')ut for someone just starting out? I don't know how people manage. CORII AND RWWFF - just think if you were one of the young couples starting out that was trying to get into a small home, no frills, a home like the one I outlined above. You would very likely have second-hand furniture, older appliances, nothing fancy.

[thuja]

Yup case closed Wild Rose.

BTW, you just saw another example of how to debate very poorly from Rwwff. He takes one detail of an argument..."Prom dress? Who are you kidding?" And uses it to refute the whole premise.

So Rwwff, when you're ready to admit that its way more difficult to manage living expenses today than it was 25 -40 years ago, you're welcome back to the debate.

You're welcome back once you're willing to say that it has very little to do with luxuries and everything to do with the way higher inflation adjusted cost of food, housing, tuition, energy, etc.

[rwwff]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', 'S')o Rwwff, when you're ready to admit that its way more difficult to manage living expenses today than it was 25 -40 years ago, you're welcome back to the debate.

[thuja]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', '
')
I've never had anything other than second/third hand furniture. My filing cabinet has to be at least 60 years old, my desk is an abandoned 6ftx3ft door with legs, dressers and tv cabinet are older than me.

Appliances I bought new because of energy cost considerations.

Housing... Too expensive where I started out renting. Called around till I found a town with houses that I considered affordable. Looked an agent dead in the eye and said, "I will not sign any offer for more than $100,000 under ANY circumstances." Low and behold, she showed me a dozen houses that fit my specs; I picked one.

Bought the house, moved in. Refied to a 15 yr fixed when rates bottomed ~2-3 years ago. I ain't buying another, and I've got no Home Equity Death Trap.

When lower middle class people try to stay anywhere that houses are costing $250k and aprts renting for $1000, THEY are the ones getting ripped off; and they need to abandon any community that would rip them off in this way.

The house is the lethal killer. If the community can't fork over a house for $100k, I don't want to live in that community. Bye. There are plenty of places in the US where decent houses can be had for $100k. You won't be living near Mr. Gates, but it'll be a house that will serve the occupants, not the occupants serving the house.