[ClubOfRomeII]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', '
')
Ever heard of peer pressure (advertising and other associated devices used to part folks from their dollars)...from folks exactly like YOU...given to preaching from a pulpit of rectitude.

[Doly]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ClubOfRomeII', '
')Peer pressure which WORKS says more about the internal compass of the person it works ON more than it does those applying the pressure. Advertising is no different.

[JustinFrankl]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ClubOfRomeII', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', '
')
Ever heard of peer pressure (advertising and other associated devices used to part folks from their dollars)...from folks exactly like YOU...given to preaching from a pulpit of rectitude.

[shakespear1]

Well said JustinFrankl

To get a better picture of the issue I recommend reading

"Age of Propaganda" by Pratkanis and Aronson

We are all under the Spell.

[mgibbons19]

every time this is brought up, it descends into this kind of debate: sutpid consumers or evil corporate bastards.

I don't know why you all fight, when it seems there is more than enough blame for the debt situation to go around.

Our economy has had difficult times since the 70s, that have been counteracted by sending the second half of a pair into the workplace and upping consumer spending.

All the evil corporate bastards needed us (you and me, the sheople) to do this. So they pushed. And over the last ten years have agreed to ever greater and shakier debt. They may have discounted risk more than they should have. they may have pushed more aggressively, ppl who shouldn['t have been pushed.

Consumers all took on more than they knew they should. 300 million looked at the math and said to themselves "i don't know how THAT'S going to work out," as they signed with a pit knawing in their stomach. but looking around, that's the way it worked for everyone, and indeed it's what all those who were supposed to know better were telling them. So, give it a shot.

Thing is, it's stupid to get into a debate as to who was stupid or predatory or to blame. The problem is the system.

Same as with oil, which is why we are all here. Doesn't really matter what you are driving, the system is going to work itself out one way or the other in the end.

[ClubOfRomeII]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Doly', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ClubOfRomeII', '
')Peer pressure which WORKS says more about the internal compass of the person it works ON more than it does those applying the pressure. Advertising is no different.

[JustinFrankl]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ClubOfRomeII', 'A')re you kidding? How else can one learn the lessons of independent thinking if you don't fall for the scams of advertising and peer pressure to reinforce the idea of how bad it is? Its an empirical principle..not a theoretical one.

[thuja]

So how about an example. A young family purchases a very modest 220,000$ home out West somewhere. Its about 1300 square feet and has 3 bedrooms and 1.5 bathrooms. They have saved up 20,000$ so they have a 200,000$ mortgage. With mortgage insurance, homeowners insurance and property taxes, they will pay about 1500$ a month. Utilities and phone costs another 300 a month on average. Food costs about 600$ a month, and they only have one car. The car payment is 250 $ a month. Dad and mom both went to college and have 4 year degrees. They also have 50,000$ in school debt. Thats another 300 a month for the next 10 years. There are daycare costs of 600$ a month while both parents work (and that is a low estimate). They want to put aside money for retirement and try to put aside 400$ a month. They will need 150$ a month for gasoline. Finally they need at least 500$ a month for miscelaneous expendables. This includes when the car breaks down, Christmas presents, haircuts, new clothes, books for the kids, dinner out twice a month, etc. So here's the whole tab.

Mortgage+insurance/taxes= 1500$
Utilities= 300$
Food= 600$
Car payment= 250$
School debt= 300$
Daycare= 600$
Retirement= 400$
Gas for car= 150$
Miscellaneous= 500$


Total= 4600$

With taxes they need to have about 5800$ gross to come up with 4600 net. Lets round up to 6000 $ net a month and say they need about 72,000$ a year to live a very modest middle class life. We haven't even mentioned plasma TVs, vacations, trips to the parents on the other coast, etc.

Both need to earn about 36,000 a year. There's a number of jobs that earn more than that but most require post graduate degrees. Going back to school for one of them would cripple them with debt while they are trying to "get ahead". And if one of them gets sick, injured or disabled, its lights out...head to bankruptcy court.

ClubofRomeII...please read the Two Parent Trap. 35 years ago, a family could survive on the wages of one bread earner- the Dad. Today, its nearly impossible to survive on two incomes. Don't talk to me about electronic gadgets...you haven't thought it through.

[WildRose]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ClubOfRomeII', ' ')

Peer pressure which WORKS says more about the internal compass of the person it works ON more than it does those applying the pressure. Advertising is no different.

[uNkNowN ElEmEnt]

justin: that was a good post.

I gave my 10 year old $42.00 to buy clothes. I thought it would be a miracle for her to get one practical item (I was along for a bit of coaching, I wasn't going to throw her blindly in a store). When given a choice she suprised me. first she chose shoes (cause she really needed new ones), then a pair of pants (I insisted since she just grew another 1/2 inch) and becuase she made good choices, and watched the prices, she still had enough left over to get a sweat coat. ALL FOR $42.00 9don't forget this is in Canada so things cost a bit more here)

So given a wee bit of instruction or guidance this 10 year old made some really good choices. but for those middle class families that can't make it I have to ask what are they teaching their kids?

[ClubOfRomeII]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JustinFrankl', '
')
But not around here. Most of us here are also independent thinkers, alphas, freaky smart & talented, and we don't need or want to be led. Quit preaching to the choir & go find some sheep to herd on another board.

[ClubOfRomeII]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('WildRose', '
')
But, you're correct that we do have a choice. It sure is a challenge teaching kids to ignore advertising, though.

[WildRose]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ClubOfRomeII', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('WildRose', '
')
But, you're correct that we do have a choice. It sure is a challenge teaching kids to ignore advertising, though.

[WildRose]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', 'C')lubofRomeII...please read the Two Parent Trap. 35 years ago, a family could survive on the wages of one bread earner- the Dad. Today, its nearly impossible to survive on two incomes. Don't talk to me about electronic gadgets...you haven't thought it through.

[ClubOfRomeII]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('WildRose', '
')
What I meant, though, about advertising is that the psychology behind it is sophisticated. Adults in advertising spend many hours trying to get inside our heads to figure out what will manipulate us to buy.

[WildRose]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ClubOfRomeII', '
')
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('WildRose', '
')Peer pressure is difficult, but kids are basically the same age as their peers and so are generally more equipped to deal with the attempts at manipulation, with a little guidance from parents, of course. In that way I see peer pressure as more benign than advertising.

[thuja]

Sorry ClubofRome, indiscriminate spending as a cause for our debt-burdened society is a fallacy. It has been refuted as myth. Deal with it.

[ClubOfRomeII]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', '
')ClubofRomeII...please read the Two Parent Trap. 35 years ago, a family could survive on the wages of one bread earner- the Dad. Today, its nearly impossible to survive on two incomes. Don't talk to me about electronic gadgets...you haven't thought it through.

[ClubOfRomeII]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', 'S')orry ClubofRome, indiscriminate spending as a cause for our debt-burdened society is a fallacy. It has been refuted as myth. Deal with it.

[rwwff]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ClubOfRomeII', 'N')ever thought I would hear of a nuclear family, plus one dog, with a single wage earner, referred to as impossible.

Less likely then it used to be, but I made decisions quite a few years ago to do my best to guarentee "the impossible".