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Open Letter To Miki

What's on your mind?
General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.
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Re: Open Letter To Miki

Unread postby Miki » Fri 15 Sep 2006, 13:34:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kabu', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Eli', 'T')hanks for the more accurate translation

That only confirms that really nothing was lost.

"vanish from the page of time" just sounds much more poetic.

The difference that you two are not talking about is between "regime" and "Israel".


Of course not. They only see what they want to see, and they make it a point to spread around their distorted views.
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Re: Open Letter To Miki

Unread postby rwwff » Fri 15 Sep 2006, 13:40:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '2')-The Palestinian right to return is an internationally recognized human right. It was declared by a UN resolution that Israel accepted.


RoR kills Israel dead as a Jewish state. Everyone knows it.

As long as Palestinians insist on RoR, there can be no peace. Its not a wanta or wishes, its a CAN NOT.
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Re: Open Letter To Miki

Unread postby holmes » Fri 15 Sep 2006, 13:43:15

Ok here it goes. PMS your correct 100%. Ok Im powering down almost to the point of being in the dirt. These folks want to see me dead no matter what. We could use zero oil and they would find an excuse to kill.
here is the bottom line:
You want to kill me, therefore I will kill u and defend myself.
Jews need to defend themsleves as well.
Its always nice to handpick what u want out of history isnt it. It doesnt work that way, sorry.
PMS and his crew observes faults on ALL sides. We take responsibility and admit faults. Your ilk on the other hand do not.
I also find humor in the city folks screamin suffrage and oil stuff yet fail to acknowledge that it is they who have the insatiable appetites and desires that are fueling the resource grabs. The never ending UGA boundaries encroaching on private properties. Water grabs. Oil dependent infrastructure. the list goes on. Therefore they really need to keep the trap closed and look in the mirror. Cities require never ending resources to keep them living. so in nutshell,
PMS is a blood brother.
and city folk eithert need to go to a strict ecological paradigm nit based on oil or stay silent.
"To crush the Cornucopians, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women."
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Re: Open Letter To Miki

Unread postby nwildmand » Fri 15 Sep 2006, 13:47:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('holmes', 'Y')ou want to kill me, therefore I will kill u and defend myself.


i love ya holmes. i will see you on the front lines when the time comes. i might even impress you with my accuracy.
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Re: Open Letter To Miki

Unread postby Miki » Fri 15 Sep 2006, 14:28:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Eli', 'H')ere is the difference Atlantic Relic.

I and many others here will freely admit when the US and Israel are talking out of both sides of their mouths. Israel and the US have obviously done some very shitty things over the years.


Very interesting, cause I haven't hear you say that except for the one time when you said Israel was criminal in their atacks in Lebanon. And you only did that when I posted an article where the Israelis themselves were admitting it. The war finished one month ago, and I never heard you condemn Israel for their actions in Lebanon before today.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')iki on the other hand will never admit that Hezebollah and Hamas have never taken actions that were not justified.


True. Israel is occupying Palestine illegally and enforcing the occupation through terrorism. For Palestinians to defend themselves is more than justified.

Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982. Hisballah resisted the invasion and illegal 20-year occupation. Resisting the illegal occupation of your land is justified.

If it was America, you two would be cheering for the guerrillas defending you. And you would more than justify it.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')er continuing position that suicide bombing innocent people is justified is passive support for it.


False. Just because I understand why people do what they do when they're desperate, it doesn't mean that I support their actions. When a psychotic person murders someone, it is still murder, but the person doesn't receive the same punishment. Does that mean that the judge supports murder? Or does it mean that the judge understands the specific circumstances in which the murder took place?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t is the same thing as saying murder is wrong but then on the other hand saying that murder is justified. And when people are murdered left and right sit their on your ass saying tsk tsk tsk that is so wrong but I guess it is justified.


When 9/11 happened, you felt it was justified to invade Irak and let Israel invade Lebanon and kill 20 times more civilians than thopse who died in 9/11. In Palestine, you have been justifying the murder of innocent civilians for 40 years. You have the right to justify murder in the name of self-defense. I don't. Please explain.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')he likes to play pretend all the time.

You said I was in your ignore list, but apparently I'm not. If you think I like to play pretend and I have nothing legitimate to say, then why bother reading my posts and replying to them?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')he likes to pretend that Nasarallah and Armdinejad are just kidding when they say things like "If [the Jews] all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide” or "Israel should be wiped off the map".

Not really. Nasrallah did say that. He hates Jews just like the Jew leaders hate the Arabs. That doesn't mean Hisballah wants to exterminate the Jews from the face of earth. Hisballah has changed its position towards more moderate views since the 1990s. In a recent interview Nasrallah said that he believes Palestinians and Jews can coexist in Israel as long as there is a regime change that respects the rights of the Palestinian people.

As for Ahmadinejad, the guy just wants a regime change in Israel. Is that so criminal?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f she would just come out and admit that millions upon millions of muslim (and non muslim) Arabs would love to see Israel burned to a crisp it would be a start.

Millions of Arabs would like to see Palestinians getting some justice. And yes, they would like to see the Israeli government being humiliated. If you had been bullied for 40 years, would you not enjoy taking the bully out of power and teaching him a lesson or two on humility and respect? Is that a crime?

Rwwff,

1-The ROR can be done gradually. No need to flood Israel with millions of Palestinian refugees. If the people coming back are balanced with the demographics in Israel, it does not necessarily have to involve a regime change in Israel. Also, once Palestinians are allowed to travel out of Palestine and return freely, that will help too. Moreover, the ROR specifies that people may choose not to return to their land and just get a monetary compensation. Not every Palestinian will decide to move back to Palestine, especially considering the horrible economic conditions that Palestine endures today.

2-During the Camp David negotiations, Arafat might have accepted to give up the ROR. The problem was not so much that, but the other conditions imposed on Palestine, such as the fact that Israel would steal all their water, keep the settlements, keep the checkpoints, keep the right to invade their air space. That's not a state by any means.
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Re: Open Letter To Miki

Unread postby holmes » Fri 15 Sep 2006, 15:04:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('nwildmand', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('holmes', 'Y')ou want to kill me, therefore I will kill u and defend myself.


i love ya holmes. i will see you on the front lines when the time comes. i might even impress you with my accuracy.


wildman I love u too bro.
I welcome ALL powerdowners with open arms. realists exactly. I would love to have a global community. Local agriculture. Intelligent breeding rates. Zero immigration. take care of our own and so on. i however am a realist and insanity is when one talks and does things over and over again with the same results. I do not do this and never will. Im for a major change even if it means major sacrifice. But I understand there needs to be certain amount of strength in order for this to happen. Not happening on my watch. But in 20 years this place is going to be lit up like a roman candle. Water I believe is going to be the breaking point. I know the glaciers are gone in 20. I mountaineer all the big ones. My old time mountaineering bros show where the glacier was and where it is now. Its mind boggeling. and the masses go full steam ahead. and we still are worrying about Islam and Isreal. : - (
"To crush the Cornucopians, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women."
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Re: Open Letter To Miki

Unread postby rwwff » Fri 15 Sep 2006, 15:21:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Miki', '1')-The ROR can be done gradually. No need to flood Israel with millions of Palestinian refugees.


Flood or no flood, RoR shifts the demographics in such a way that a Jewish majority population can not be sustained for any length of time.

ie, Isreal as a Jewish state dies.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '2')-During the Camp David negotiations, Arafat might have accepted to give up the ROR. The problem was not so much that, but the other conditions imposed on Palestine, such as the fact that Israel would steal all their water, keep the settlements, keep the checkpoints, keep the right to invade their air space. That's not a state by any means.


This I do agree with you on. But I never suggested that Arafat should or should not have accepted Camp David; though he should have understood that doing so essentially places Isreal and the Palestinian Resistance in a state of war, allowing them to legally shoot and bomb each other, pretty much to their hearts content.

Not so good for the Palestinian guy who just wants to make ceramic sinks to sell in Haifa. Probably a pretty good deal for the adrenaline junky that wants to shoot at Israelis though.

My worst fear is that a solution will evolve on the ground involving a complete seal of the Israeli border along the current security barrier line, and an acceptance of a few hundred civilian bomb casualties a year. Considering the US is entirely comfortable with tens of thousands of American civilians killed violently every year, this is a situation Israel could simply become comfortable with forever. The reason this is so bad is that Gaza and the West Bank could be great places to live and work, but only if there is open, friendly, unrestricted trade between them and Israel. With the border sealed, those places become worse than a barren strip of land in Darfur.

So far, my worst fear situation for the palestinians seems to be evolving apace.
abundance fleeting
men falling like hungry leaves
decay masters all
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Re: Open Letter To Miki

Unread postby Miki » Fri 15 Sep 2006, 16:46:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Miki', '1')-The ROR can be done gradually. No need to flood Israel with millions of Palestinian refugees.


Flood or no flood, RoR shifts the demographics in such a way that a Jewish majority population can not be sustained for any length of time.


Even if the Palestinians only come back at the rate that the Israei population grows?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'i')e, Isreal as a Jewish state dies.


Another option: how about Palestinians are allowed to return once two states are formed and the situation is more stable?

Another option: how about a government is formed with both Pals and Jews in charge, that represents the interests of both populations? I think a system like the one we have in Lebanon might work: where a number of authorities from each religious group are appointed every year, regardless of the proportion of each religious group in the population, just to prevent civil wars.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')though he should have understood that doing so essentially places Isreal and the Palestinian Resistance in a state of war, allowing them to legally shoot and bomb each other, pretty much to their hearts content.


I never thought about that. That's a smart insight Rwwff. He probably figured that out though. I guess he knew it was an absurd deal, but he might have also predicted what you said: that a pseudo state would only make things worse by allowing an official war to happen, without giving much to the Palestinians in return.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')ot so good for the Palestinian guy who just wants to make ceramic sinks to sell in Haifa. Probably a pretty good deal for the adrenaline junky that wants to shoot at Israelis though.

I think most Palestinians just want to leave in peace, but they won't accept to be subdued and humiliated to achieve that. There are however, many Palestinians who are sick with hatred (and with good reason) or who still dream of a single state. Those would have to give up on their impossible/irrational aims, just like the IRA or ETA did. A terrorist group is nothing without popular support. Hamas has popular support now because, basically, they are the Palestinian army! And they're resisting the illegal Israeli occupation and defending the Palestinian people. Once Palestinians have peace and their rights are recognized, support for extremist groups will dminish greatly.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')y worst fear is that a solution will evolve on the ground involving a complete seal of the Israeli border along the current security barrier line, and an acceptance of a few hundred civilian bomb casualties a year.

Why do you think they have not done it yet? My guess: they won't give up until they annex the occupied territories. Quite a few Israelis call those lands "Israel".

Also, why can't both nations keep the trade once things get more peaceful? It benefits both. Besides, by oppressing the Palestinians more, Israel will only get more violence.
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Re: Open Letter To Miki

Unread postby Chuck » Sun 17 Sep 2006, 12:50:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '
')

smug self-righteousness pisses me off.


You are sooo funny!
The government will think of something
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Re: Open Letter To Miki

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Sun 17 Sep 2006, 12:55:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Chuck', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '
')

smug self-righteousness pisses me off.


You are sooo funny!
I think SPG already covered that. :)
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Re: Open Letter To Miki

Unread postby NordicHero » Sun 17 Sep 2006, 18:29:03

My opinion is that Miki just delivered PMS and others a thorough asskicking. Her posts are factual, concise, logical, and even-handed.
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Re: Open Letter To Miki

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Sun 17 Sep 2006, 18:37:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NordicHero', 'M')y opinion is that Miki just delivered PMS and others a thorough asskicking. Her posts are factual, concise, logical, and even-handed.
Well, maybe not one of my better efforts, here, I suppose. OK. But we do know your thoughts on Israel and Jews, so maybe you are biased, just a little?
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Re: Open Letter To Miki

Unread postby NordicHero » Sun 17 Sep 2006, 19:36:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', 'B')ut we do know your thoughts on Israel and Jews, so maybe you are biased, just a little?


It's true that I hold a particular animous for the Jewish skullduggery that has helped to plunge America headlong into disaster.

But I think Miki's words stand on their own.
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Re: Open Letter To Miki

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Sun 17 Sep 2006, 19:53:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NordicHero', '
')But I think Miki's words stand on their own.
Of course you do. But what I've been saying is that there doesn't seem to be anyone around here changing their minds about anything. Buffalo Springfield put it very well in For What It's Worth:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')here's battle lines being drawn
Nobody's right if everybody's wrong
Young people speaking their minds
Getting so much resistance from behind
I think it's time we stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
What a field-day for the heat
A thousand people in the street
Singing songs and carrying signs
Mostly say, hooray for our side
It's time we stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down



Too bad there doesn't seem to be any getting past the "hooray for our side" thing. But the radical polarization is just going to get worse as time goes on.
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Re: Open Letter To Miki

Unread postby Miki » Mon 18 Sep 2006, 07:42:05

Eventhough PMS's blind patriotism and irrational support of the state of Israel gets on my nerves, he has two virtues that are undeniable:

1-He admits when someone that opposes his views has a valid point. That is an extremely rare virtue. Most of us human beings are not capable of admitting when we're wrong unless we're forced to by the circumstances :).

2-He has a genuine love for his country and he defends the ideals that made America a special place in the world. Unlike some posters here, he does not defend America in spite of its crimes. Rather, he genuinely believes that America is not as criminal as some of us portray it. This patriotism is admirable, but unfortunately it also gets in the way of many Americans' capacity to acknowledge the other facts of the story: the facts that don't portray America in a good light.
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Re: Open Letter To Miki

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Mon 18 Sep 2006, 16:20:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Raphael', '
')Symbols don’t mean shit, right PMS?
I never said that, Raph. The Canadian flag is a symbol, recognized by very many people. The yin-yang symbol, the cross, or even dollar bills are all symbols. The letters IHOP are a symbol that might even cause a somatic response of salivation and pangs of appetite. The swastica is also very much a symbol, stolen forever, or at least for a thousand years (a thousand years being another symbol) from whomever used it long ago for whatever reason. My impression of what you do is that you are making up your own personal symbolism; perhaps you pull eclectic elements from books you read, perhaps you pull some of it out your imagination, perhaps some of it is inspired by your THC reveries, clearly you pull them out of somewhere! Doesn't matter, it's just your own made up symbolism when it's all said and done. I'll grant you that all symbols are "made up" by somebody at sometime, and perhaps you wish to be the author of a widespread symbolic iconography. It's a grand ambition if that's what you are trying to do. Nowadays it's mostly done by corporate artists for commercial logo purposes. Hitler was pretty good at the symbolism game. Just look at what he did with the swastica! But it went much further than that. The nighttime torchlight parade was a powerful symbol too. I just never thought your symbolic yearnings amounted to more than a little personal idiosyncracy of yours. That's not the same thing as failing to see the importance of symbols on my part. But keep it up if it's what floats your boat, maybe you'll hit the big time and start a cult! BTW, does anybody know the story of why Hitler chose the swastica, and how did people first react to it? It clearly has a long history, as Raph has reminded us. Nowaday we can only see it in the rearview mirror, so to speak. What was it in 1933?
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