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Back to the city

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Re: Back to the city

Postby emersonbiggins » Wed 09 Aug 2006, 20:15:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('emersonbiggins', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zardoz', 'N')ow that is impressive. Kudos to TPTB for their demonic cleverness. That's worthy of Satan, himself.
Whats so horrible about the military having first dibs on electric power generation??? Sounds like an excellent plan to me.

A fine plan, indeed, so long as their objectives don't interfere with yours or mine. I fear that they will.


So? Conform your objectives to those which are held by the people who wield power as much as possible and try not to let your other objectives get in the way of those who wield power.


So far, so good, I suppose...
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Re: Back to the city

Postby Zardoz » Wed 09 Aug 2006, 20:23:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eric_b', '.')..It may even come to the point where certain areas of the country (like Southern Kali and certain large cities) will be purposely cut-off, infrastructure wise, and allowed to wither. This would take place very rapidly and people would not have time to organize any sort of coherent response, or even understand what was happening. Planned starvation...


Hmmmm... Population cull just by pulling the plug on the cities, then surrounding them with mercenary forces to keep survivors from escaping, huh?

Leave the country folk alone so they could be good little hard-laboring food producers and obediently deliver the goods to TPTB?

Okay. Sounds good. I guess the question is: Would we rather perish in the cities, or end up as agricultural serfs, existing solely to function as farm equipment for the aristocracy and their mercenary forces?

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Re: Back to the city

Postby rogerhb » Wed 09 Aug 2006, 20:41:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', 'W')hats so horrible about the military having first dibs on electric power generation??? Sounds like an excellent plan to me.


Your blind trust in people is truly astounding!
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Re: Back to the city

Postby rwwff » Wed 09 Aug 2006, 21:09:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', 'W')hats so horrible about the military having first dibs on electric power generation??? Sounds like an excellent plan to me.

Your blind trust in people is truly astounding!


Trust has little to do with it. I want our warriors to have the best of everything they need to fight and win where ever they go. If there are some scraps left over for HHS, HUD, Interior, Education, Treasury, Justice, NASA, State, whatever, wonderful. If not, tough tacos.

In any event, I don't trust government in general, however, if I had to rank them from least vile, to most vile. Least vile would have to be DoD. Most vile would have to be Interior.
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Re: Back to the city

Postby rogerhb » Wed 09 Aug 2006, 21:24:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', 'T')rust has little to do with it. I want our warriors to have the best of everything they need to fight and win where ever they go.


.... and who will control the military? Who will they be defending? Who will they be attacking? Who will be in the refugee columns and trains?

Where do you think you will be?
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Re: Back to the city

Postby marko » Wed 09 Aug 2006, 21:37:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('marko', 'I')n fact, I foresee a recession next year that spirals into depression by end of the decade.

I think you're guessing too quick. The inertia of 5mbpd+ of US production can not be ignored.

The housing bubble thing may be disturbing you more than it should. Trust me, the ones playing the free money scam are going to get everything they deserve. The bankers are going to get spanked a little also for handing out $500,000 checks for houses that have not even half that in real costs. Maybe together, they'll learn not to be idiots in the future, though I wouldn't count on it.


This is a little off topic, but I want to address some misunderstandings.

First, I don't understand the relevance of 5mbpd of US production. This is well below the lowest conceivable US demand in a depression. The US will still need to import.

Second, you misunderstood my argument about the economy. The US economy and the majority of jobs in the US today are now dependent on household consumption. That in turn is dependent upon households' ability to take on more ever more debt. The collapse of the housing bubble will do more than cause a few million people to lose their homes. It will severely cut consumer demand, devastate the retail, wholesale, and transportation sectors, and many leading financial institutions. It will destroy much of the construction sector and the millions of new jobs in real estate. We are talking many millions out of work. This further cuts into consumer demand. Consumer demand accounts for >70% of the US economy. The collapse of the housing bubble and its knock-on effects could cut consumer demand by >25%. That means a >15% drop in GDP, initially. This of course will lead to further layoffs across the service and manufacturing sector as demand for products falls. Leading to still further layoffs. I see no way that the collapse of the housing bubble can have an effect on the US economy less severe than the Great Depression. I can see ways that it could have a more severe effect.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', 'T')rust has little to do with it. I want our warriors to have the best of everything they need to fight and win where ever they go.


First of all, what do you mean by "our" warriors? Do you believe that you as a US citizen have any control over the US military? Or are you in fact one of the wealthy elite who control it from behind the scenes? If so, then no doubt they will serve you to the bitter end, as long as you offer them a better deal than they could get as civilians.

But if you are not one of those truly in charge, you should give up your naive belief that the US military actually acts in the interests of ordinary Americans.

What if their future mission involves taking over your farm---killing you and your family if you resist---so that a military-controlled agricultural work camp can grow crops on your property to feed the troops? Will you still want them to "fight and win wherever they go"?

Understand that I do not wish such a thing for you. But it seems plausible to me that this kind of thing will happen, and I think you should wake up and smell the coffee for your own good.
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Re: Back to the city

Postby rwwff » Wed 09 Aug 2006, 21:41:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', 'T')rust has little to do with it. I want our warriors to have the best of everything they need to fight and win where ever they go.
.... and who will control the military? Who will they be defending? Who will they be attacking? Who will be in the refugee columns and trains?


Elected commander in chief. Its worked fine for a very long time now, I see no reason why it would change. Our military doesn't defend. Attacking is harder to guess, depends on a lot of things. I suspect "the usual suspects" will be the targets, "Islamic Terrorism", "Tyrants", etc. ie, everyone that has oil that might consider trading it for something other than dollars.

I depart from some on refugees. There will be no refugee columns and trains. They will be allowed to die in place believing assistance is on the way. Those with half a brain will get on a bicycle, or start walking long before a particular city ceases to exist.

As for the others.... natural selection in action.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')here do you think you will be?


To difficult to predict. Hopefully doing everything I can, to help them be victorious. Good bets, if it happens in my productive lifetime, either growing food, or making bombs (for US military use). I'm good with either.

edit: clarification on "bombs"...
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Re: Back to the city

Postby rwwff » Wed 09 Aug 2006, 22:04:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('marko', 'F')irst, I don't understand the relevance of 5mbpd of US production. This is well below the lowest conceivable US demand in a depression. The US will still need to import.

No, in a depression the US will not be importing squat. The point of the 5mbpd is not that it meets current needs; but rather it is an incredibly valuable economic input that provides a buffer on the bottom end of things.

On the economy, I don't disagree with where things are headed and what the cause is. I only differ with you on the speed at which things will happen. I suspect the end result will make the Great Depression look like child's play; I just think it'll take about fifteen years for it to come about.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'r')e - military

No, I don't have magic strings to pull on the military, sheesh.

If their future mission is to take over my farm, I will simply have to get out of the way. Thats the way of things. Just as it is now. A town wants to displace some guy from his business, it just serves him papers, settles in court, and takes what it wants. Hows that any different.

And yes, I will still want them to fight and win where ever they go. The idea of a military control ag work camp is pretty stupid though. The military might round up a bunch of "refugees" and have them pick the corn or thresh the wheat I grew for them though. I think the various experiences in the 20th century about sticking non-farmers on farms or displacing those that are currently farming pretty much dictates against it happening here. They want food, not land. Best way to get the food is to print some dollars, give the dollars to an existing farmer, and say, "where da beef!"
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Re: Back to the city

Postby Zardoz » Thu 10 Aug 2006, 00:32:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', 'C')rawford, TX...

...The disposable, replaceable people live in Washington.


You wish. I'm not talking about the Hand Puppet-In-Chief and his off-the-grid ranch. I'm talking about the people who are really running things.

The disposable, replaceable people live in Abilene, Joplin, Elko, Syracuse, Galesburg, Omaha, and Cookeville. The ones who will be getting the last of the resources live in The Hamptons, Annandale, Chicago's Gold Coast, Sausalito, Beacon Hill, Medina, and Bel Air Estates.

The multi-billionaires are not going to abandon their cities. They're going to see to it that the urban centers be maintained as long as is physically possible. Everybody else will get in line behind them. The smaller the community, the further down the line it will be.

The truly rural areas won't even know where the line is.
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Re: Back to the city

Postby rwwff » Thu 10 Aug 2006, 00:49:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zardoz', 'T')he multi-billionaires are not going to abandon their cities.


They'll bail the moment those cities start to look like the death traps they are. They'll evacuate by escorted helicopter without giving the millions left behind even a shrug of interest. The resources they need are prepositioned where ever they feel safest from the rioters and looters.

If you think the politicians don't care about the huddled masses, I promise you the multi-billionaires sure as heck don't care.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he truly rural areas won't even know where the line is.


I'm not saying there will be resources getting to these areas.. Rather that those "resources" are just luxuries, not essentials for life. In the cities, those resources are the only thing that seperates one from a rapid and very unpleasant death.
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Re: Back to the city

Postby Doly » Thu 10 Aug 2006, 07:37:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', 'R')ather that those "resources" are just luxuries, not essentials for life. In the cities, those resources are the only thing that seperates one from a rapid and very unpleasant death.


What resources are you talking about here?
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Re: Back to the city

Postby o2ny » Thu 10 Aug 2006, 09:05:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zardoz', 'T')he multi-billionaires are not going to abandon their cities.


They'll bail the moment those cities start to look like the death traps they are. They'll evacuate by escorted helicopter without giving the millions left behind even a shrug of interest. The resources they need are prepositioned where ever they feel safest from the rioters and looters.



Sorry, but where are all these rich people going to go? Are they all going to take a jet to Rio, Monte Carlo or the South of France... and stay there permanently? Why are those places any more advantageous than any other? New York City is absolutely jam packed, block after block with rich, powerful (probably pampered in some cases) people who are in no way willing to become survivalists... they are here for the long haul barring any catastrophic event. (btw, NYC was pretty much a death trap in the '70s, while most of the uber-rich set never even noticed).

And where is the stock market, commodities exchange, and investment banks on Wall Street going? Not to mention all the people that work there to keep them up and running. I think they're going to dig in and hold down the fort... whatever it takes. There's nowhere else to go. If the TPTB want to maintain some semblance of an economy the cities and power centers have to keep functioning.
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Re: Back to the city

Postby marko » Thu 10 Aug 2006, 11:17:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zardoz', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', 'C')rawford, TX...

...The disposable, replaceable people live in Washington.


You wish. I'm not talking about the Hand Puppet-In-Chief and his off-the-grid ranch. I'm talking about the people who are really running things.

The disposable, replaceable people live in Abilene, Joplin, Elko, Syracuse, Galesburg, Omaha, and Cookeville. The ones who will be getting the last of the resources live in The Hamptons, Annandale, Chicago's Gold Coast, Sausalito, Beacon Hill, Medina, and Bel Air Estates.

The multi-billionaires are not going to abandon their cities. They're going to see to it that the urban centers be maintained as long as is physically possible. Everybody else will get in line behind them. The smaller the community, the further down the line it will be.

The truly rural areas won't even know where the line is.


Zardoz, this makes sense to me, but I also agree with some of rwwff's points. I do think that the ultrarich will remain in certain cities. I also think that cities will remain key control centers for a post-peak economy, because they are the nodal points for the energy-efficient transport infrastructure (water, rail) and for the communications infrastructure. In effect, they will be the command centers, and the powerful want to be in the command centers. By the way, I would not write off Omaha. It is an important transshipment point for grain heading down the Missouri River. (And Warren Buffet lives there.)

But I do think that large parts of the urban sprawl will be left to disintegrate into chaos and destruction. There will not be the resources to defend areas where the unemployed poor live (including much of the former middle class). What I think will be defended are a small number of elite neighborhoods and the urban economic infrastructure.

The idea of the elites retreating en masse to isolated rural fortresses is hard to imagine, though some rich people will have them as well as an urban residence. What will be more common will be for elites to shift from their urban residences to defended summer and winter colonies in the usual places: Nantucket, the Hamptons, Malibu, Palm Beach (if these places aren't inundated by global warming), Aspen, Palm Springs, etc.

The focus of elite life has always been elite society. In earlier centuries, this was known as "attending court." Elites live to show off their wealth to each other, to trade valuable information, to cultivate relationships that might prove of political or material benefit to them. This requires that they be in close proximity to each other, at least part of the time. That points to clustered residences, particularly under conditions of high transport cost and social disorder.

As for small towns and rural areas, I don't think that it will be possible to generalize. It will depend a lot on economic resources and the strength of community institutions. If a place has strong, depression-proof economic resources, access to rail or water transport, and strong community institutions, it should be relatively conducive to survival. Without these things (e.g. most of exurbia), watch out.
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Re: Back to the city

Postby rwwff » Thu 10 Aug 2006, 11:43:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Doly', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', 'R')ather that those "resources" are just luxuries, not essentials for life. In the cities, those resources are the only thing that seperates one from a rapid and very unpleasant death.


What resources are you talking about here?


In the rural areas, electricity, nat-gas, coal, fuel-oil, fertilizer(maybe), cars, trucks, heavy machinery, oranges, lemons, limes, advacados, kiwis, mangos, jackfruit, coffee, seafood, synthethic cloth, paper towels, kleenex.... etc.

I would not count on access to anything fairly heavy or bulky.

I suspect people will find ways to deliver some things out to the rural land holders, things that contribute to food production, preservation, packaging, and/or delivery.

In cities, its pretty simple, food and clean water in; sewage and trash out. Any one of those fails and you end up with dead corpes numbering in the hundreds of thousands.

There are really way to many variables in play to really know; but given a choice between city and rural land that has been held in the family for generations; I think the rural homestead makes more sense. And if Peak Oil doesn't really happen for another two hundred years; it'll make a nice place to retire to.
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Re: Back to the city

Postby Backtosteam » Thu 10 Aug 2006, 12:24:11

What is rich? I'm serious...10 million US dollars? What if John has a 3 million dollar town home in NYC and a 3 million dollar beach villa. Okay that leaves 4 million dollars. What is that invested in? What will this stuff be worth if TSHTF? Unless you have planned ahead you won't be much better off. Stocks and dollars could be worthless. Who is going to protect you? Who is going to fly the helicopter to get you to the "island". There are just so many scenarios. The smart rich will get out.
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Re: Back to the city

Postby thuja » Thu 10 Aug 2006, 12:56:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', '
')In cities, its pretty simple, food and clean water in; sewage and trash out. Any one of those fails and you end up with dead corpes numbering in the hundreds of thousands.

There are really way to many variables in play to really know; but given a choice between city and rural land that has been held in the family for generations; I think the rural homestead makes more sense. And if Peak Oil doesn't really happen for another two hundred years; it'll make a nice place to retire to.


Hmmm- rural homestead. All roads, schools and infrastructure to rural properties are propped up by state and federal monies. In Oregon Bush has been working hard to slash the rural budget. In the future, slashing rural budgets will be a necessity.

So you may have a homestead with some fig trees and a lot of corn, but it will cost a fortune to truck that food to the nearest city. And I hope the roads are still in good shape then, not to mention the creaky old bridges.

Oh, and by the way, the Home Depot and Safeway with all your backup supplies closed up out there in East Jesus because the jobs dried up and people couldn't make a living. They moved to the city.
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Re: Back to the city

Postby rwwff » Thu 10 Aug 2006, 13:31:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', 'H')mmm- rural homestead. All roads, schools and infrastructure to rural properties are propped up by state and federal monies. In Oregon Bush has been working hard to slash the rural budget. In the future, slashing rural budgets will be a necessity.

So you may have a homestead with some fig trees and a lot of corn, but it will cost a fortune to truck that food to the nearest city. And I hope the roads are still in good shape then, not to mention the creaky old bridges.


Roads - roads are cr** for transport after peak. Rail is how such stocks will move to the city. Farm is just a few miles from the rail yard; me and mule and an adapted trailer can get quite a load of rice or wheat to the wholesale pickup point. I'll get the dollars I need to pay the taxes, the city folks will get the food they need to keep showing up at the human powered sewage treatment plant.

Schools - schools are only expensive because of Federal and state required services and curriculuum. The buildings will still exist. The windows will be removed, AC & heat will be non existant, special ed and exotic courses will be long dead memories. But teachers will still teach kids to read and write and do some math.

Infrastructure I expect to fail at some point and not be replaced. But the infrasture,as I noted earlier supports luxury, not life. In the city, that same infrastructure which will fail sooner or later and not be replaced, supports life, not luxury.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')h, and by the way, the Home Depot and Safeway with all your backup supplies closed up out there in East Jesus because the jobs dried up and people couldn't make a living. They moved to the city.


I'm having a hard time thinking of anything I *need* that isn't made locally; however, if there is in fact something that I just am to stupid to know about, the "big city" is just a two-three day bicycle ride away.

Lots of luxuries that I'd miss, certainly.
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Re: Back to the city

Postby Zardoz » Thu 10 Aug 2006, 13:53:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', '.')..the "big city" is just a two-three day bicycle ride away...

Oh, well, no problem then...
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Re: Back to the city

Postby rwwff » Thu 10 Aug 2006, 14:15:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zardoz', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', '.')..the "big city" is just a two-three day bicycle ride away...
Oh, well, no problem then...


Interesting comment, but no suggestion of what is in the big city that I would need....

Wonder why that is.
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Re: Back to the city

Postby Dreamtwister » Thu 10 Aug 2006, 14:28:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Backtosteam', 'W')hat is rich? I'm serious...10 million US dollars? What if John has a 3 million dollar town home in NYC and a 3 million dollar beach villa. Okay that leaves 4 million dollars. What is that invested in? What will this stuff be worth if TSHTF? Unless you have planned ahead you won't be much better off. Stocks and dollars could be worthless. Who is going to protect you? Who is going to fly the helicopter to get you to the "island". There are just so many scenarios. The smart rich will get out.


To understand what "rich" is, you need to detatch yourself from dollars. Dollars are only a physical representation of real wealth, which is power.

Power to mobilize a private army
Power to feed your private army
Power to impose your will

As always, the elite require a layer of personal security upon which they can stand in order to elevate them above the masses. Their personal security in turn hoist the elite upon their shoulders out of fear of becoming one of the unwashed masses.

So who is rich? Who can mobilize and feed their own private armies? The answers may not be obvious now, but they will be in time.
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