[thuja]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', '
')I'm having a hard time thinking of anything I *need* that isn't made locally; however, if there is in fact something that I just am to stupid to know about, the "big city" is just a two-three day bicycle ride away.

Lots of luxuries that I'd miss, certainly.

[rwwff]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', 'I')'m having a hard time thinking of anything I *need* that isn't made locally; however, if there is in fact something that I just am to stupid to know about, the "big city" is just a two-three day bicycle ride away.
Lots of luxuries that I'd miss, certainly.

[Dreamtwister]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', '
')I'm having a hard time thinking of anything I *need* that isn't made locally; however, if there is in fact something that I just am to stupid to know about, the "big city" is just a two-three day bicycle ride away.

Lots of luxuries that I'd miss, certainly.

[rwwff]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dreamtwister', 'I')'m not sure I agree with his choice of living at a railhead, or within a 3-day bike ride of a city, but everything else is right on target.

[Dreamtwister]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', 'P')oint of info, a 3 day bike ride is 250 miles. There aren't a lot of agriculturally productive places that are more than 250 miles away from a city.

[thuja]

Rwwff

If you have the ability to be 100 % self-sufficient out in East Jesus with no power tools, machinery and vehicle than all power to you. To accomplish this task, one would need to have enough arable acreage that is easily tilled by farm animals, a well insulated home with a woodstove, a good source of wood and an axe (remember no chainsaw), and I hope you have many back up parts for that bike. You will need to be able to grow, mill, process all your food, fix all your tools, repair your house using only the land around you and make and mend all your clothes. Also, I hope you have paid off the mortgage on the land and can figure out a way to pey for property taxes because you won't be commuting to a paying job.

Even if all this was possible, it would be exceedingly difficult for most modern people. If you can do it, all power to you!

There was a movement of several million folks back in the 60's who believed they could accomplish this. Almost none of them succeeded. Trying to go it alone with a completely off-the-grid farming homestead is not only exceedingly difficult, it should be actively discouraged as young naive people will think they can easily do this.

So Rwwff- good luck and all power to you if you have solved all of these problems and are ready for complete off-the-grid self-sufficiency. Just don't tell people its the simplest or best way to go.

[rwwff]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', 'I')f you have the ability to be 100 % self-sufficient out in East Jesus with no power tools, machinery and vehicle than all power to you. To accomplish this task, one would need to have enough arable acreage that is easily tilled by farm animals, a well insulated home with a woodstove, a good source of wood and an axe (remember no chainsaw), and I hope you have many back up parts for that bike. You will need to be able to grow, mill, process all your food, fix all your tools, repair your house using only the land around you and make and mend all your clothes. Also, I hope you have paid off the mortgage on the land and can figure out a way to pay for property taxes because you won't be commuting to a paying job.

[Zardoz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', '.')..no suggestion of what is in the big city that I would need...

[azreal60]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'J')ust don't tell people its the simplest or best way to go.

I don't recall making any such claim. It is, however, best for me.

[Pops]

One of the problems with these types of discussions is not delineating a time frame. Thuja has pointed out, rightly so I think, that medium term – 10-20 years in my book, there are obvious problems with a rural situation due to expense/income circumstances.

You point out the same in this quote rw,
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', 'T')he economy right now will NOT support a small farm; so you have to protect that land with other income and avoid trying to fit the square peg in the round hole.

[rwwff]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zardoz', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', '.')..no suggestion of what is in the big city that I would need...

[rwwff]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'O')ne of the problems with these types of discussions is not delineating a time frame.

[thuja]

Ok rwwff- we're pretty much on the same page. In the near short term, its smartest to maximize preparation in the form of reducing debt, accumulating wealth and purchase necessary items for a long decline. In the longer term, we may see a wholesale return to an agrarian economy. To prepare for this time it would be great to own land that one can develop in the short term and then maximize as we shift away from an industrialized energy intensive world.

Even in an agrarian and light industrial future, cities will have a place as hiubs for the transfer of goods. There will still be shipping and ports will do well in that regard. Cities will maximize the last droplets of petroelum based energy well into this century. There will be massive poverty, hunger and crime, but rural areas will experience declining government funds for infrastructure.

As "easy" petroleum based energy declines, physical labor will become increasingly necessary and most of us will be required to work in the fields, the mines, in the local factories and at the docks and train stations: loading, picking, tilling, sewing, shearing, smithing and mending.

The work many of us have now, is trying to avoid being a slave in exchange for food and housing in the not too distant future. By owning land, we can imagine a life where we are our own bosses and create our own life, even if it is just as hard as the dockworkers who work for scraps of bread. I have no problem with that concept and applaud that vision.

Now that you've eplained that its part of a long term transitional plan, I'm all for it. Its the "Lets-get-in-the-car-and-move-to-East-Jesus-right-Now" scenario that bothers me.

[threadbear]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('azreal60', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'J')ust don't tell people its the simplest or best way to go.

I don't recall making any such claim. It is, however, best for me.

[MrBill]

What is most overlook is that what is good for 'one' individual is not 'scalable' for the majority.

For example, one can be over optimistic about 'our' ability to solve our problems with technology, and then err on the side of 'over optimism' when it comes to being self-sufficient. Yes, I have been reading Mother Earth and Harrowshith since the 1970's and come from a farm so I know what I am talking about.

We do not even have enough cows, draught horses and oxen to plow the land, nevermind the harnesses and buggies as well as plows. Where will they come from? Who will repair the antiques?

On my farm, I know who. My step brothers who are welders and mechanics and we already own these older pieces of farm implements.

Tell me how the arse from the city is going to come out with his "live betwen two valley's and not let his neighbors know where he lives" is going to replicate my extended family's know how and infrastructure that is already in place?

Peak oil is a serious problem and some of you dream of being Huck Finn! Do not get me wrong, the more time you spend talking nonsense, the better it is for me, but being a hunter and having guns of my own, I am under no illusions I can fend off mobs or survive, nevermind thrive, if no one else in 'my community' is getting by.

But it is amusing to read your fantasies. It reminds me of when I was a young boy and I wanted to be a bush pilot in nortern Canada. In the meantime, I grew up, but it is always fun to dream.

[rwwff]

Since your message is untargetted, I'll have to assume I'm included in your pack with "fantasies"...

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', 'e')rr on the side of 'over optimism' when it comes to being self-sufficient.

[Zardoz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', '.')..No intention of being Huck Finn, I intend to do what my great grandfather did, pretty much in the same place he did it...

[MrBill]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', 'S')ince your message is untargetted, I'll have to assume I'm included in your pack with "fantasies"...

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', 'e')rr on the side of 'over optimism' when it comes to being self-sufficient.

[Doly]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eric_b', 'I')t may even come to the point where certain areas of the country (like Southern Kali and certain large cities) will be purposely cut-off, infrastructure wise, and allowed to wither. This would take place very rapidly and people would not have time to organize any sort of coherent response, or even understand what was happening. Planned starvation.

[Dreamtwister]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Doly', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eric_b', 'I')t may even come to the point where certain areas of the country (like Southern Kali and certain large cities) will be purposely cut-off, infrastructure wise, and allowed to wither. This would take place very rapidly and people would not have time to organize any sort of coherent response, or even understand what was happening. Planned starvation.