[Robert Espy]

Having Matt on your team is a little like having a raving psychotic agree with you. It's luggage better lost to other less worthy causes. Preferably those that aren't yours.

No, I don't think Matt is psychotic. I just think he is intellectually dishonest. Of course, being psychotic isn't a choice. Nor is it generally profitable.

[MattSavinar]

Intellectually dishonest?

How so?

Matt

[Joram]

Matt for president ! :D

[frankFranchesca]

I first noticed this message board yesterday and spent a couple of hours reading through the posts. How unfortunate that even here some people bicker and seem to chide others for criticizing/questioning the Bush thugs/the government/The Machine, and almost rush to The Machine’s defense and practically accuse people hypothesizing on The Machine’s actions of being “conspiracy theorists.” After reading here, I took the little poll on the main page about what the consequences of peak oil might be, and based on my experience, my true inclination was to pick “major economic problems” because that seems to me to be the first likely occurrence. But then I decided on picking the “extinction” choice. If humans cannot work together relatively pleasantly toward a common goal at this stage, what are the chances they can work together after any kind of social collapse? Well, even if they could work together, if extinction is already on its way, extinction is on its way. I don’t know if a species can do much to stave of its own extinction, especially if that species itself is probably largely responsible for its own extinction....

I have my own ideas--for what that’s worth, which may not be much--but I don’t like harping on them because I don’t know for sure what’s actually going to happen within the next couple of decades. Making too-specific predictions can prove problematic: predicting the future often turns out to be a very inexact process and predictors can easily ruin their "reputations." IMO, it’s often better to admit that we can’t really accurately predict what will happen as that admission is likely much closer to the truth. And a much scarier stance. If we can’t predict very accurately, we probably can’t prepare very accurately. So we should choose our actions very carefully, we should look long and hard before we leap, and ideally prepare for many possible scenarios. IMO, this is the situation humanity is in right now--a lot scarier one than “this is what will happen” because we likely don’t know what will happen. Few want to express that “reality” though. It seems to me that too many people would rather think they know the future for certain than hear the reality that they just can’t likely know the future accurately. Even some (unfortunately self-serving and dogmatic) scientists have seemingly deluded themselves that they know what will happen in future. Too many humans seem to think they’re “gods.” Is it any wonder we’ve got such huge problems on Earth?

But I digress. I think Matt’s comments above about the you’re-a-conspiracy-theorist censoring going on nowadays are right on target; I’ve been complaining about the same damn thing for over a year now. I try hard to keep things in proper perspective and maintain a more balanced view (assuming a balanced view can possibly exist, which may be a big assumption). Nevertheless, if there ever were a time for actual “conspiracies” to be occurring en masse, now is the time. Try not to assume/believe that because we seem to live in an era where few if any individuals, especially individual politicians, want to take responsibility for their actions and few are being held to account for their actions, that all this equates with “there are no or few conspiratorial actions going on, and few have ever gone on.” Think of prisons: they've been in existence for a long time and have often held people who had engaged in conspiracies. Maybe some of them were in actuality innocent, but all of them? I don’t think so. And considering how many people are overusing resources on this overcrowded planet and that crime in general seems to be rife, I wouldn’t be surprised if there were more conspirators now on many fronts than ever before. And maybe even more in proportion compared to smaller populations of times-past. Navigating our enormous bureaucracies today is becoming an impossible task. And so it seems is recognizing and prosecuting anyone scheming inside those bureaucracies. IMO, life is getting harder and harder, people seem to be getting meaner and meaner. It’s either screw or be screwed. There doesn’t seem to be much behavior going on outside that ideology today. Not surprising when, as I’ve said, there are likely way too many humans on this planet, and way too few resources, and many of the resources left are probably not high-quality ones. Also, there may be more permanent psychological effects from enduring environmental stressors over extended periods of time....

Anyway, I’m going to use an expression I don’t necessarily like using: LIGHTEN UP. And try being nicer to each other, you know? I think many of us are under enormous stress, which is probably responsible in part for too many disagreements over methods-of-action even among those who seemingly have the same end-goal.

Okay, my mini-lecture is over . Later,

Fran

www.geocities.com/frankFranchesca

[Pops]

Nice rant frank!

I agree; no one knows the future, so one should prepare for as many as possible.

As for lightening up, I think you’ve seen, on this thread especially, how passionate people are about what they think is coming down the road. There have been many posts here in the last months about how to explain the problem to family and friends without coming off like a crackpot and I think Matt is a lightening rod for those frustrations because his view is so ominous and outspoken.

Having said that, you must admit that just as Matt’s conspiracy theories deserve to be aired in a civil fashion, so do the opinions of those who believe in Matt’s-only-out-to-sell-books theorists.

Write again!

[MattSavinar]

As far as being out to sell books, anybody notice I have big yellow sign on every page that says:

"Free to all military, all media, and all legislators"

I know of no author who makes that offer. I've given away at least twice the number of books I've sold.



Matt

[MattSavinar]

So forgive me if I tell the people who say I'm only out to sell books that they can fuck off.

(not directed at you pops)

Matt

[MattSavinar]

The board substituted fudge for f--k

Just want to make that very clear.

Matt

[Pops]

Now be nice.

Energy is still cheap, there is plenty of time for flinging dirty underwear in the future.

Repeat after me: "Computer automation is good. Computer automation is good."

[MattSavinar]

Pops,

Very true. Have settled down a bit. =)

That was some built up dirty underwear coming out.

Matt

[Aaron]

As Matt pointed out, there are plenty of folks in jail today for conspiracies.

Although I guess determining if somethings a conspiracy or not is pretty relative. (Like Mandela was jailed for something similar)

Sometimes you get Watergate, and sometimes you get Area 51.

In any event, we won't be suppressing any opinions... that's what forums are for.

And I might also add in Matt's defense something I have written here before...

Books on Peak by Matt =1+

Books By all of us = 0

[Guest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', ' ')There have been many posts here in the last months about how to explain the problem to family and friends without coming off like a crackpot and I think Matt is a lightening rod for those frustrations because his view is so ominous and outspoken.

[frankFranchesca]

Actually, I’ve written nine books...all novels though. One is a very allegorical story that takes place in a futuristic post-petroleum-type world. I wrote it in 2000...and didn’t realize some of the story’s other details would unfortunately soon seem to come true in this real world. I’m working on another futuristic story in a world that's based on more "alternative technologies"--well, that’s just the background for the world really. My novels aren’t too technical. I spent years studying science and reading textbooks; don’t have any interest in writing textbook-type novels. My stories are more sociological.

I’ve also been reading through all the endless pages of essays and posts and stuff I’ve written over the years, intending to put them into a book. But this new novel idea has side-tracked me--not sure now what I’m gonna do with my nonfiction. Hopefully the novel will keep coming strong; if not, then I guess it’s back to the nonfiction. Writing has become somewhat difficult for me lately as there doesn't seem to be much of an audience for me anymore. And it's hard sometimes to remain focused when I feel the world is teetering on the brink--I bet plenty of you here understand that problem!

It’s great that many people are suddenly writing books/articles about petroleum and environmental issues. Think I found the link to Matt’s site at Vegsource, so the word seems to be out about his place and his book....

Fran

[MattSavinar]

You want to know why politicians and the media don't deal with this issue head on?

Read through this thread. As soon as I (or anybody) raises the possiblity of something that shakes up the status quo, everybody comes back with "Well, we shouldn't mention that because people won't listen to us if we do."

Imagine your John Kerry. You suggest to your advisors, "Hey, maybe we should just be totally upfront with the American people about the seriousness of the situation."

What do you think his advisors would insist that he do instead? "No, no, sir - if we give them the truth they will get pissed and won't vote for you. Better that you give them what they can handle. Make sure to paint a real rosy picture too."

If you want to help make a difference in this situation, you're going to have to lose your fear of being thought of as a freak, doomsayer, nutcase, or anything else.

Otherwise, you're part of the problem.

We have an extreme situation. Extreme situations call for extreme responses.

Your fire alarm is extremely loud for a reason.

If you've got a good one, it is so loud it probably hurts your ears when it sounds.

You'd have to be pretty dumb to insist somebody in your house take time to turn the fire alarm down to a more moderate, conservative tone.

If you do, and your house burns down with all your family inside, there is nobody to blame but yourself.

Matt

[MattSavinar]

In 1999, I said I had a bad feeling about Enron. I told a friend who said, please Matt, enough with the conspiracy stuff.

Matt

[Pops]

Fran, one of the things I find most agreeable about this medium is that an unschooled person such as myself can have a conversation with you and others on a relatively even footing.

Personally, I like change. Perhaps for the challenge, perhaps just to relieve the boredom. I suppose I become bored too easily with modern life.


You wrote:
“the momentum toward collapse is too huge, too fixed, too old.”


Actually, after reading that line, maybe we’re not on such an even footing after all.

Take care and write again.

[Simon]

It is important to realize that incompetency is very often perceived as a deliberate effort to do evil from the perspective of the individual person. This principle applies to all levels of human relationship. The ability to discriminate between one and the other is not a natural attribute of the human psyche and must be acquired through experience and other forms of education. This problem highlights the more general case that effective and accurate use of our brains is a function of training and not naturally operative in any particular individual at birth.This fact does imply, at the moment , that the vast majority of humanity is incapable of comprehending , let alone, participating in the resolution of the impending crisis. However, it is simple to understand that a fire always goes out when there is no more material to be consumed. This reality principle holds for all scales and areas of physical existence, including the stars and is really the basic issue under discussion on this site. There isn't much more to add to this except to try to specify time frames, for closure, if that is useful.

[misterp]

Matt's theories are not that implausible, certainly better then the official version. Before I came across this particular thread, it occurred to me that perhaps the threats of attacks on the Saudi oil infrastructure were engineered by our own government as an eventual excuse to seize the oil fields. All this would mean is that we get more oil while others get less, this is a zero sum game, and eventually everyone loses. I also think it is likely that the Powers that Be are deliberately tryong to hide peak oil, The terrorist problems in SA seem just too conveniently timed after the skyrocketing demand from China. Maybe they'll even SAY that some big pipelines have busted when we start to have gas lines(Wag the Dog, anyone)? Why should we put anything past these people. Between CIA as petroconsultants' biggest costumer, Cheney and Bush being oil men, peak oil expert MAtt Simmons on that secret energy task force(and we on this board know why it was secret, dont we?), and that PNAC document about needing a "new Pearl Harbor", it is absolutely impossible, even if they weren't in on it, that 9/11 was a complete and unwelcome surprise. Maybe, in the end, the best thing they will think of doing is manufacture another domestic terrorist crisis, declare martial law so we drive less, further putting off the point at which we really feel the bite. Farfetched? cancelled election, anyone? These guys hold themselves above the law as no past president has.

[misterp]

I do realize that the point of this thread was partly to put out whether Matt should discuss 9/11 along with peak oil. My answer is yes. If people can't see when all the dots connect better than with other "conspiracy theories"-too bad. The thing about peak oil is that it is scientifically valid while at the same time making profound sense of geopolitical events-it appeals to smart people-most "conspiracy theories" don't have both these qualities at once. Again, if people can't see the difference, and think the powers that be are benign, decades of evidence to the contrary-too bad.

[clv101]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MattSavinar', 'A')s far as being out to sell books, anybody notice I have big yellow sign on every page that says:

"Free to all military, all media, and all legislators"

I know of no author who makes that offer. I've given away at least twice the number of books I've sold.

Matt