[Doctor Doom]

I think it's worth trying to get the other 99% to wake up. There's still a chance to avert a complete collapse, but only if everyone's on board. Otherwise those 99% are going to be the desperados you'll have to defend your families against, and there's just too many of them to think you can keep them all at bay.

[notacornucopian]

Matt, I am 100% behind you with respect to " connecting the dots ". The issue of Peak Oil requires that a person be capable of facing the truth, and if it means breaking down their belief systems, so be it. I have done a lot of conspiracy web reading on various subjects. I have come to the conclusion that there is a tremendous amount of disinformation out there. However, when it comes to items that may have a tie in to Peak Oil, I pay attention. The unanswered questions with respect to the 9/11 tragedy do bear special attention because of the subsequent actions of the current administration. I do not believe that any decent American would back the governments actions if the ' conspiracy theorists " were somehow proven right ( government involvement or complicity, etc.. ).

Having said that, I understand why some would suggest not bringing up " conspiracy theories " to avoid diluting the Peak Oil message. However, the question I have for those that have educated themselves on Peak Oil but are fighting the notion that 9/11 was a catalyst for the current war ( as a cover for controlling ME oil ) is: What is the real reason for the war in Iraq ?

[Pops]

I have to pipe up and ask how the Gang That Can’t Think Straight could have executed such a plan?

Considering the inept civilian leadership’s planning and prosecution of the war and occupation?

And the Commandeer in Chief’s handling of the economy?


More likely they simply took advantage of the situation.

From Carl Sagan's Baloney Detection Kit: http://www.carlsagan.com/revamp/carlsagan/baloney.html

“Occam's razor - if there are two hypotheses that explain the data equally well choose the simpler.”

[Chichis]

Peak Oil is an undisputable fact. The rest of that stuff is this conspiracy theory. There isn't enough evidence to prove them beyond a doubt. That is the problem with linking them together, especially when trying to iniate new people into it.

Peak Oil is easy to prove. The data is out there, the theory is rock solid. Peak Oil is a function of geology and it just comes down to science. Those conspiracy theories are a function of human society, politics, government. It's not like science, it's not so easy to prove. People will respond more openly to a scientific theory than a sociopolitical theory.

[TheSupplyGuy]

Yeah, guys, I think we give Dubya too much credit sometimes, .

[Pops]

And as far as Mr. S’s “responsibility” to be an impartial commentator, I think he presents a picture that has caused many people to investigate further than they would have otherwise, myself included.

And to be blunt, Rush and the majority of the Dittoheads will never believe in Peak Oil anyway – it's just another liberal lie perpetrated to deprive God fearing Christians of their rightful due!


This is the Open Forum isn’t it? I’d hate to have to delete my own post! lol

[notacornucopian]

Gotta disagree with you on the " Gang that Can't Think Straight " post pops. So by an extraordinarily happy coincidence, with demand about to outstrip supply, fundamentalist muslim hijackers unwittingly did the Bush administration a big favor by paving the way for an excuse to raid the most petroleum rich region in the world ?

Never would I believe that Dubya could plan & mastermind something of this magnitude. He is simply a figurehead, who may end up being a patsy if things go terribly wrong for those who risk being exposed.

How about this one: what would be going on right now if there was no 9/11 to use as an excuse for war ? Since there does not appear to be any WMD's in Iraq, and consequently no chance of of Jihad through intercontinental missles, how else could the oil supply have been secured ?

[Pops]

Or to look at it from another perspective nota, perhaps the real result of 9/11: wall-to-wall Arabic coverage of the Infidels attacking Islam, turned out to be a dark cave dream come true for OBL, thousands of new recruits for the cause, little sympathy and huge burdens for the US.

Bushco as patsy could be right!

Did I read or was it just rumor that OBL agrees with simmons that oil should be at $150? They way we are pushing everyone's buttons that may come sooner than later.

[MattSavinar]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('OilBurner', 'M')att,

I happen to find there is reason to see that what you say about 9/11 has a ring of truth about it - however whether it's true or not, or whether I agree with you or not really matters not a bit.
The problem is, as I see it, that you are setting yourself up as a person exposing Peak Oil and the politics behind it but you are doing so in a manner that makes it easy to write you off as a crackpot - which I assure you, I don't believe you are!!

You don't know me well enough. I am a raving crackpot - you have to be to do this work in the first place. =)

You may not like it, but by bringing yourself increasingly into the public eye, you are representing everyone here and a whole range of views and facts - therefore you reflect on all of us. I urge you to use moderation, caution and common sense in doing so otherwise you are wasting your time and allowing this very serious issue to be sidelined and degraded. i.e. stick to proven and undisputable facts in your arguments, not documents that only provide circumstantial evidence, like the Northwood documents.

Circumstantial evidence is all you need to get a conviction in a criminal case. No smoking gun is needed.

With all due respect, "moderation and common sense" is what has prevented the mainstream media from covering this issue - everybody is so afraid of being called a "conpiracy theorist" or a "parnoid doomsayer" they become unwilling to present serious, life-and-death issues.

Like government complicity in recent attacks.

You claim to be a trained lawer - in your current position it would be easy for people to claim you are a drop out and a failure, trading off the back of the money earner that is Peak Oil publishing. That is not my opinon of you, nor should you care what I think of you, but I am merely suggesting how others can easily categorize you - rightly or wrongly.

If I gave a sh-t what other people think, that site would never have gone up in the first place. Also, I don't just claim it - anybody can go to my site, click on about me, click on resume and verify my credentials.

Note that respected and widely quoted people like Colin Campbell do not indulge in the speculative politics of peak oil - he knows only too well how easily that would tarnish his image.

Luckily for me I have no "image" to tarnish.

Unlike MadScientist, I do believe that educating people will have some benefit and is meaningful, after all everyone who posts here and accepts some or all aspects of Peak Oil Theory will have previously have been unaware of it but now understand it. That's progress and maybe will help save lives or avert a potentially worse disaster that we must have to face. Yes - that is optimistic and I see nothing wrong in that.

p.s. Matt, could you please change your site so that you don't have to click on the image of a gas pump to enter - it doesn't work for text only and blind users. Thanks.

[MattSavinar]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Anonymous', 'M')att Savinar is not helping but actually seriously hurting the chances of timely public awareness of the Peak Oil problem.

[MattSavinar]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('OilBurner', 'D')on't get me wrong, I'm not trying to censor Matt, I just think he's shooting himself (and us) in the foot by going off into dubious subjects. He can say exactly what he likes (at the minute), thank God!!

I agree with you a certain amount - most people really don't want to know about anything that challenges their world view and that's exactly why we need to make it easier for them to accept the Peak Oil idea.
The more political things get wrapped up with it, the more our core message is being lost.
Fact is, supply is almost certainly not going to meet demand and demand must therefore fall.
Whether the US Gov. is forcing it's own airliners into skyscrapers really doesn't have any bearing on that fact - it's a periphery and talking about it and other extreme possibilites (and facts) will scare more people away.

I'm sorry you think we're wasting our time on so many of our friends and families. I think there should always be hope. Once, slavery was the norm and acceptable to many people. They didn't want to hear about it being wrong, too many vested interests were at stake. But times change, and I believe we can only move forward if we present our arguments in a moderate, fact driven manner. Otherwise we will be ridiculed in years to come, just as Alien believers often are now and that's shame because it may yet turn out that we are being visited and the message was lost because of people degrading the content of the message with clear nonsense. I fear that could happen here too.

[MattSavinar]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('notacornucopian', 'M')att, I am 100% behind you with respect to " connecting the dots ". The issue of Peak Oil requires that a person be capable of facing the truth, and if it means breaking down their belief systems, so be it. I have done a lot of conspiracy web reading on various subjects. I have come to the conclusion that there is a tremendous amount of disinformation out there. However, when it comes to items that may have a tie in to Peak Oil, I pay attention. The unanswered questions with respect to the 9/11 tragedy do bear special attention because of the subsequent actions of the current administration. I do not believe that any decent American would back the governments actions if the ' conspiracy theorists " were somehow proven right ( government involvement or complicity, etc.. ).

Having said that, I understand why some would suggest not bringing up " conspiracy theories " to avoid diluting the Peak Oil message. However, the question I have for those that have educated themselves on Peak Oil but are fighting the notion that 9/11 was a catalyst for the current war ( as a cover for controlling ME oil ) is: What is the real reason for the war in Iraq ?

[MattSavinar]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'I') have to pipe up and ask how the Gang That Can’t Think Straight could have executed such a plan?

Considering the inept civilian leadership’s planning and prosecution of the war and occupation?

And the Commandeer in Chief’s handling of the economy?


More likely they simply took advantage of the situation.

From Carl Sagan's Baloney Detection Kit: http://www.carlsagan.com/revamp/carlsagan/baloney.html

“Occam's razor - if there are two hypotheses that explain the data equally well choose the simpler.”

[MattSavinar]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'A')nd as far as Mr. S’s “responsibility” to be an impartial commentator, I think he presents a picture that has caused many people to investigate further than they would have otherwise, myself included.

And to be blunt, Rush and the majority of the Dittoheads will never believe in Peak Oil anyway – it's just another liberal lie perpetrated to deprive God fearing Christians of their rightful due!


This is the Open Forum isn’t it? I’d hate to have to delete my own post! lol

[MattSavinar]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Joram', 'm')att,

I think that Oilburner has a good point.
If you only tell people who know nothing about peak oil and the facts they have already difficulties to accept this.
If you gonna throw in the conspiracy government points they have even more difficulties accepting peak oil.

Although your book is really good, it makes too much points about killing Iraqi ppl with depleted uranium, and attacks on 9-11 who where helped by the government.
The connection 'army US in Iraq' vs 'peak oil' is quickly made but people don't see that 9-11 thing very easily in connection with peak oil.
That is the reason why i don't have asked anybody yet to read your book. I now they are going to dismiss it as 'end of the world stuff'. And just another conspiracy theory.

Don't get me wrong i believe the things you wrote in your book but other people have lot of difficulties accepting those extra facts about government, depleted uranium etc.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')e, as a community should be very careful talking about political issues and certainly should never speculate over matters of conspiracy or data that cannot be validated.

If we fail to do this the it is not surprising that our ideas will not be taken seriously and grouped in with the UFO believers and lizards as world leaders looneys.

[MattSavinar]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('OilBurner', 'M')att,

I happen to find there is reason to see that what you say about 9/11 has a ring of truth about it - however whether it's true or not, or whether I agree with you or not really matters not a bit.
The problem is, as I see it, that you are setting yourself up as a person exposing Peak Oil and the politics behind it but you are doing so in a manner that makes it easy to write you off as a crackpot - which I assure you, I don't believe you are!!
You may not like it, but by bringing yourself increasingly into the public eye, you are representing everyone here and a whole range of views and facts - therefore you reflect on all of us. I urge you to use moderation, caution and common sense in doing so otherwise you are wasting your time and allowing this very serious issue to be sidelined and degraded. i.e. stick to proven and undisputable facts in your arguments, not documents that only provide circumstantial evidence, like the Northwood documents.
You claim to be a trained lawer - in your current position it would be easy for people to claim you are a drop out and a failure, trading off the back of the money earner that is Peak Oil publishing. That is not my opinon of you, nor should you care what I think of you, but I am merely suggesting how others can easily categorize you - rightly or wrongly.
Note that respected and widely quoted people like Colin Campbell do not indulge in the speculative politics of peak oil - he knows only too well how easily that would tarnish his image.
Unlike MadScientist, I do believe that educating people will have some benefit and is meaningful, after all everyone who posts here and accepts some or all aspects of Peak Oil Theory will have previously have been unaware of it but now understand it. That's progress and maybe will help save lives or avert a potentially worse disaster that we must have to face. Yes - that is optimistic and I see nothing wrong in that.

p.s. Matt, could you please change your site so that you don't have to click on the image of a gas pump to enter - it doesn't work for text only and blind users. Thanks.

[MattSavinar]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MattSavinar', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('OilBurner', 'D')on't get me wrong, I'm not trying to censor Matt, I just think he's shooting himself (and us) in the foot by going off into dubious subjects. He can say exactly what he likes (at the minute), thank God!!

I agree with you a certain amount - most people really don't want to know about anything that challenges their world view and that's exactly why we need to make it easier for them to accept the Peak Oil idea.
The more political things get wrapped up with it, the more our core message is being lost.
Fact is, supply is almost certainly not going to meet demand and demand must therefore fall.
Whether the US Gov. is forcing it's own airliners into skyscrapers really doesn't have any bearing on that fact - it's a periphery and talking about it and other extreme possibilites (and facts) will scare more people away.

I'm sorry you think we're wasting our time on so many of our friends and families. I think there should always be hope. Once, slavery was the norm and acceptable to many people. They didn't want to hear about it being wrong, too many vested interests were at stake. But times change, and I believe we can only move forward if we present our arguments in a moderate, fact driven manner. Otherwise we will be ridiculed in years to come, just as Alien believers often are now and that's shame because it may yet turn out that we are being visited and the message was lost because of people degrading the content of the message with clear nonsense. I fear that could happen here too.

[MattSavinar]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Chichis', 'P')eak Oil is an undisputable fact. The rest of that stuff is this conspiracy theory. There isn't enough evidence to prove them beyond a doubt. That is the problem with linking them together, especially when trying to iniate new people into it.

Peak Oil is easy to prove. The data is out there, the theory is rock solid. Peak Oil is a function of geology and it just comes down to science. Those conspiracy theories are a function of human society, politics, government. It's not like science, it's not so easy to prove. People will respond more openly to a scientific theory than a sociopolitical theory.

[notacornucopian]

Pops -

Matt Simmons and OBL - strange bedfellows ! I seem to remember reading the same two items - Simmons saying oil should be at $ 180/barrel ( to reflect the true value of the resource - and then reducing consumption through unaffordability ? ) and OBL pushing for $ 150/barrel ( to drain the infidels pocketbooks ? ).

I have a lot of difficulty accepting that all muslims are maniacal fundamentalists willing to die in order to defeat the infidels. I would hope that the more intelligent muslims also realize that all westerners are not Christian reformers willing to go on crusades for the cause.

Divide and conquer is certainly not a new idea.......

[MattSavinar]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('OilBurner', 'D')on't get me wrong, I'm not trying to censor Matt, I just think he's shooting himself (and us) in the foot by going off into dubious subjects. He can say exactly what he likes (at the minute), thank God!!.