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The Anti-Kunstler Thread

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The Anti-Kunstler Thread

Unread postby emersonbiggins » Thu 22 Jun 2006, 15:22:06

This subject of Kunstler's war hawk stance came up on another website, and it was intriguing to learn that Jim has been a hawk for the Iraq war apparently since 9/12/01, well before the invasion was publicly conceived and commenced in 2003.

Link to Kunstler's blog, 9/2001

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')eptember 12, 2001
...Second, the people of Iraq should be warned to depart their capital city, Baghdad, which should then be completely destroyed. The nation of Israel should begin immediately the deportation of Palestinians from the West Bank to the Kingdom of Jordan. The people of Gaza Strip should be transported to Egypt, and the Gaza incorporated into the state of Israel.

This quote isn't so much about a possible Iraq war as it was about bombing random Middle Eastern cities, that may or may not contain terrorist elements within them. Other cities included were Tripoli, Damascus, et. al. Cities within Saudi Arabia were not mentioned, incidentally, perhaps because their government is decidely pro-Western. I included the Israeli quote because it provides some frame of context for the event.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')eptember 14, 2001
...It seems to me that there is an urgent need for the United States to gain control of the stockpiles of anthrax, smallpox, other biological and chemical agents, and nuclear experiments within the territory of Iraq. How this operation might be carried out, I cannot begin to try to describe, except to say that it would require both tremendous brute military force and delicacy of execution. But what is the alternative? To wonder what Sadaam Hussein might chose to do with these materials?


This was the quote that stood out prominently to me. Obviously, the information in it is nothing new, we all knew Saddam used chemical agents during the Gulf War, ten years earlier. However, it begs the question of "why would we have engaged in a war with an enemy when it was known that Iraq had not been involved with the 9/11 attacks?" Perhaps this was more of a "lash out at all Islamic nations" comment, but it seems a bit more sinister than that.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')eptember 17, 2001
...I remain convinced that the US will have to mount an aggresive action against Iraq. We are deeply concerned about "rogue" states and especially their stockpiled weapons of mass destruction. We know of at least one huge stockpile of these things, and we know that they are in Iraq. Can we afford to not neutralize it?


The war hawk stance is stiffening for Kunstler, some 6 days after 9/11. What I don't remember was this sort of dialogue taking place on the national level. Rather, our thoughts of war lay with Afghanistan at the time, and, to some extent, the greater Islamic world, but Iraq being mentioned so succinctly doesn't stand out in my mind at all.

Maybe some of you knew this, maybe all, I don't know. It's just...interesting...
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Re: Kunstler's War Hawk Stance on Iraq days after 9/11

Unread postby eastbay » Thu 22 Jun 2006, 23:21:28

I believe he's simply looking after the interests of his people; Israel. It's an entirely natural thing for someone to do.

I'm sure many here would feel the same if their (people's) nation was threatened.
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Re: Kunstler's War Hawk Stance on Iraq days after 9/11

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Thu 22 Jun 2006, 23:56:26

Well said, and I admire the restraint and sagacity. Let's face it though, reason can't win out on this one. It's a taste of the future. Nothing is going to get better, it's all going to get worse.
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Re: Kunstler's War Hawk Stance on Iraq days after 9/11

Unread postby Liamj » Fri 23 Jun 2006, 00:49:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('emersonbiggins', '.').Maybe some of you knew this, maybe all, I don't know. It's just...interesting...


Interesting it is, I wonder did Kunstler know of the Neo-cons very well developed desires to do just as he lobbies for.
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Re: Kunstler's War Hawk Stance on Iraq days after 9/11

Unread postby PrairieMule » Fri 23 Jun 2006, 13:09:25

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('emersonbiggins', '
')
Maybe some of you knew this, maybe all, I don't know. It's just...interesting...


After reading this thread, I went back to Ch 3 of THE LONG EMERGENCY (pp61-64) and the passionate war hawk rant is consistant with the blog. I completley missed it the first time through. It is interesting considering he is so heavy handed with any waste of resources to build a Wal-mart but not a Aircraft carrier being moved to the Persian gulf?.
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Re: Kunstler's War Hawk Stance on Iraq days after 9/11

Unread postby emersonbiggins » Fri 23 Jun 2006, 13:17:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrairieMule', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('emersonbiggins', '
')
Maybe some of you knew this, maybe all, I don't know. It's just...interesting...


After reading this thread, I went back to Ch 3 of THE LONG EMERGENCY (pp61-64) and the passionate war hawk rant is consistant with the blog. I completley missed it the first time through. It is interesting considering he is so heavy handed with any waste of resources to build a Wal-mart but not a Aircraft carrier being moved to the Persian gulf?.


I honestly believe he thinks that our oil is under their sand. He's made mention of the fact that Western energy expertise went into making the ME oil region into the behemoth that it is, and the all the wealth and decadence enjoyed by the oil sheiks is only possible thanks in large part to the US. On that note, he might have a point, but I'm at a loss as to why he thinks we would accomplish anything with that oil but "more of the same," which is why I think his rants as of late exemplify the man's impatience with the inertia of it all.
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Re: Kunstler's War Hawk Stance on Iraq days after 9/11

Unread postby PrairieMule » Fri 23 Jun 2006, 14:12:23

I think you really picked up on something my friend. I think he does show his frustration in Chapter 3 with the amount of time and treasure invested in the Middle East. On the flip side, which is the bigger eyesore: a bomb crater in Baghdad created by a F-16 or the vinyl sided TacoBell/KFC that is later built on top of it? Doesn't matter what side of the war you are on, everyone understands that both are by-products of the spread of democracy.
[smilie=new_usa.gif]
That alone violates what I perceive as Kunstler's first law:Thou shalt not piss away any more resources because we are living on borrowed time..
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Re: Kunstler's War Hawk Stance on Iraq days after 9/11

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Fri 23 Jun 2006, 15:16:40

The War is on and will continue right into the post peak era. It will get much hotter before it ever cools off. Kunstler is a realist. There are lots of propaganda games going on, but The War is here and just getting started. I can't say that I know what is really going on about resources and religious wars and democracy and permanent military bases in Iraq and all that. It's pretty obvious that the War is on, though. Watch for political rough waters ahead. The country is fractious and the mood is brittle.
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Re: Kunstler's War Hawk Stance on Iraq days after 9/11

Unread postby eastbay » Fri 23 Jun 2006, 15:53:00

To be more accurate, after the word, 'Israel', I should have added:

'... regardless of the financial and political cost to the US and the needless waste of American and Iraqi lives.'
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Re: Kunstler's War Hawk Stance on Iraq days after 9/11

Unread postby MacG » Sat 24 Jun 2006, 03:15:00

Kunstler is a propellerhead. An entertaining propellerhead but nevertheless. Use the WayBack Machine to see what he wrote in anticipation of Y2K, and then ask yourself how far you would trust his prophetic powers on other issues.
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Re: Kunstler's War Hawk Stance on Iraq days after 9/11

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Sat 24 Jun 2006, 03:30:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MacG', 'K')unstler is a propellerhead. An entertaining propellerhead but nevertheless. Use the WayBack Machine to see what he wrote in anticipation of Y2K, and then ask yourself how far you would trust his prophetic powers on other issues.
Sure mac, it really is nice to know that there is nothing to fear. I found a new supermarket called "Pancho Villa's" with lower prices. Gas prices are coming down too. Everything is going to be fine.
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Re: Kunstler's War Hawk Stance on Iraq days after 9/11

Unread postby MacG » Sat 24 Jun 2006, 03:52:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MacG', 'K')unstler is a propellerhead. An entertaining propellerhead but nevertheless. Use the WayBack Machine to see what he wrote in anticipation of Y2K, and then ask yourself how far you would trust his prophetic powers on other issues.
Sure mac, it really is nice to know that there is nothing to fear. I found a new supermarket called "Pancho Villa's" with lower prices. Gas prices are coming down too. Everything is going to be fine.


Kunstlers constant nagging about the discomforts of modern life is horrible. The latest blog entry where he complain over delayed flights make him look like a spoiled brat with severe PMS. Dont like the airplane? Well, get walking for heavens sake!

When did I say that everything will be fine? I think Kunstler is a whimp-doomer. THIS is doomerish: "Your kids will have to drink animal pee from a hubcap and you will be greatful that they are alive."
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Re: Kunstler's War Hawk Stance on Iraq days after 9/11

Unread postby Liamj » Sat 24 Jun 2006, 07:13:01

I agree MacG. HK is colourful, entertaining, and absent of real content. His constant blaming of xyz just regresses his audience to teenagers with too-poor parents. Thanks, but 'democracy' does that for me already.

More war might be inevitable, but that doesn't make it smart. HK pushing it demonstrates the guy can't add up or learn a new trick (he already knew how to jump on a bandwagon), and both are suicidal failings at this point in history.
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Re: Kunstler's War Hawk Stance on Iraq days after 9/11

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Sat 24 Jun 2006, 13:06:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MacG', '
')Kunstlers constant nagging about the discomforts of modern life is horrible. The latest blog entry where he complain over delayed flights make him look like a spoiled brat with severe PMS. Dont like the airplane? Well, get walking for heavens sake!
Yeah, you're right about the nagging. But hey, he did have a nice train ride and spoke glowingly of it! :-D
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Re: Kunstler's War Hawk Stance on Iraq days after 9/11

Unread postby greenworm » Sun 25 Jun 2006, 18:30:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')ure mac, it really is nice to know that there is nothing to fear. I found a new supermarket called "Pancho Villa's" with lower prices. Gas prices are coming down too. Everything is going to be fine.



Gas prices will be coming down in 2007 provided iraq gets back on it's feet and I hear talk of withdrawal, so this is possible. Besides that the graphs all indicate a build up from 2007 to 2009, another positive sign is that hedge funds are not jumping into the oil trading pits which is what ultimately determines the price. Then again, after 2009 is does look quite slippery if ya know what I mean. :lol:
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Cheap Oil Is Over

Unread postby furrydog » Tue 11 Mar 2008, 10:43:27

Here's another piece by Kunstler linking cheap oil and NASCAR.

Cheap Oil Is Over: Kiss the Gas Guzzling NASCAR Era Goodbye

By James Howard Kunstler, Chelsea Green Publishing. Posted March 11, 2008.

A suburban nation of snowmobilers, dirtbikers and NASCAR races -- all of it was made possible by the one-time blessing of cheap oil.

http://www.alternet.org/environment/79282/
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Re: Cheap Oil Is Over

Unread postby killJOY » Tue 11 Mar 2008, 11:00:06

After reading this, I'm now convinced Kunstler is the worst asshole possible to cite as an advocate for peak oil awareness.

Take time to read the comments section. Amid the "abiogenic" oil comments and other crap are some very, very pointed criticisms of Kunstler's elitism, false claims, lack of compassion, idiotic correlations, and art-fag chauvinism.

He is the only "critic" whose repetitious blab is mindlessly reproduced without a single fact-check or verifying link.

That I can agree with about 50% of what he says only makes his crackpot vision of America all the more galling.

I hope, when the shit hits the fan, some bubba knocks on Kunstler's door and eats his fat ass.

By the way:

The liberal antidote for Kunstler-itis is Joe Bageant.
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Re: Cheap Oil Is Over

Unread postby gnm » Tue 11 Mar 2008, 11:07:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('killJOY', 'T')hat I can agree with about 50% of what he says only makes his crackpot vision of America all the more galling.

I hope, when the shit hits the fan, some bubba knocks on Kunstler's door and eats his fat ass.



:lol:

Hehe, yeah his vision of the walkable new urbanism stuff leaves me cold as it doesn't really fit at all with the issues in the west. His experience seems to be all east coast elitist.

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Re: Cheap Oil Is Over

Unread postby killJOY » Tue 11 Mar 2008, 11:22:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')ehe, yeah his vision of the walkable new urbanism stuff leaves me cold as it doesn't really fit at all with the issues in the west. His experience seems to be all east coast elitist.


Sadly, I'm sympathetic with K, to a degree:

I went to art school for awhile, had pretensions of being a writer, have lived in the north all my life, like books and music--

But unlike him, I guess, I never fit into that world socially, because my background is emphatically, undoubtedly working class (my dad--a factory worker in Toledo; mom stay-at-home with five kids; public school, with a little catholic schooling thrown in; self-pay through local college; left graduate school in disgust.)

Something tells me Kunstler had a middle-class upbringing. He doesn't KNOW the people he lampoons.

If I'm wrong and he is like Bageant--a working-class dude that has done well--then he's even a worse monster than I imagine, turning viper-like on his own.

P.S. What kind of an asshole tries to sell a fucking NOVEL about the crisis he pretends to warn people about?

Worse, what kind of peak oil idiot would buy such a novel?
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Re: Cheap Oil Is Over

Unread postby Tyler_JC » Tue 11 Mar 2008, 12:51:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')harles Bensinger, co-founder of Renewable Energy Partners of New Mexico, describes Kunstler's views as "fashionably fear-mongering" and uninformed regarding the potential of renewable energy, biofuels, energy efficiency and smart-growth policies to eliminate the need for fossil fuels. Contrarily, Paul Salopek of The Chicago Tribune finds that, "Kunstler has plotted energy starvation to its logical extremes" and points to the US Department of Energy Hirsch report as drawing similar conclusions while David Ehrenfeld writing for American Scientist sees Kunstler delivering a "powerful integration of science, technology, economics, finance, international politics and social change" with a "lengthy discussion of the alternatives to cheap oil."

Kunstler, who majored in Theater at college and has no formal training in the fields in which he prognosticates, made similar predictions for Y2K as he makes for peak oil. Kunstler responds to this criticism by saying that a Y2K catastrophe was averted by the hundreds of billions of dollars that were spent fixing the problem, a lot of it in secret, he claims.

In June 2005 and again in early 2006, Kunstler predicted that the Dow would crash to 4,000 by the end of the year. The Dow in fact reached a new peak by 2007. In his predictions for 2007, however, Kunstler admitted his mistake stating "Let's get this out of the way up front: the worst call I made last year was for the Dow to crumble down to 4000 when, in fact, it melted up to a new all-time record high of about 12,500. The reason we saw this, in my opinion, was that inertia combined with sheer luck to keep the finance sector decoupled from reality…". He also predicted, however, that in 2006 the United States housing bubble would start to deflate, which appears to be borne out by latest data. However, unlike Kunstler's Dow predictions, which were uniquely his, the bursting of the United States housing bubble was widely forecast before Kunstler began discussing it.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Howard_Kunstler

Someone please explain to me why Mr. Kunstler is qualified to talk about anything with a level of conviction resembling certainty?

He's an author and a social critic. This means that he can write an entertaining story, lampooning some element of society. He should stick to fiction. Actually, everything he writes is fiction so I guess he's doing what he does best. When society doesn't collapse into cannibalism in the next five years, he can move on to another topic and sell another couple thousand books. And God bless'em, he can write a great story. I enjoy reading his humor column (err, blog).

But let's be honest with ourselves about Mr. Kunstler. He's not a geologist, an economist, a physicist, a psychologist, an urban planner, an engineer, or a computer scientist.

And yet he pretends to have the same level of knowledge as someone involved in all of those professions.

He is no more credible than Alex Jones, Richard Heinberg, or Michael Ruppert when it comes to discussing issues related to Peak Oil. All of those people, I should add, have no formal training in anything even remotely related to petroleum engineering, economics, electric engineering, etc.

There are credible Peak Oil theorists. Matthew Simmons, T Boone Pickens, Colin Campbell, Kenneth Deffeyes, and others can make a credible claim that they know what they're talking about.

Kunstler, on the other hand, knows about as much about Peak Oil (and its related consequences) as anyone on this forum. That's not to say we're clueless but compared to someone who actually works in the oil fields or in the trading pits at NYMEX, we're just making wild ass guesses.
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