General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.
by rwwff » Tue 20 Jun 2006, 19:31:35
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('holmes', 'F')or the love of god, there are such devices that exist!
That is a picture of a Japanese pocket hotel. The guy inside is likely setting the thermostat to his preference before going to sleep.
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rwwff
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by Jack » Tue 20 Jun 2006, 19:46:09
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', '
')- Convert homes/businesses to DC power (Makes all electronics/appliences cheaper and more energy efficient)
While making transmission less efficient. You can find out why in Wikipedia. So the gains you get in one area will be more than offset by transmission losses. Or shall we scrap the existing power generation infrastructure?
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', '
')- Build Stirling Solar Collactors (For Localized Water purifying & Power Generation)
Stirling engines? Now how are you going to use a stirling engine to purify water? I suppose your idea is to create massive solar-driven generators - but why on Earth use a stirling engine? And, too, this has us scrapping the existing infrastructure and building a whole new one. Yikes!
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', '
')- Grey water management system for rural areas
That sounds like a serious energy burner; and why target rural areas? The population is least dense there, so running an extensive network of sewers and grey water supply pipes is going to represent a massive undertaking.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', '
')- Build Wind power generation (Localized Power Generation)
That's already being done. Visit West Texas sometime.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', '
')- Build Geo Thermal Heat pumps (replaces hot water heater, furnus, air conditioning all in one)
So now we have another replacement of infrastructure. The costs - both in terms of money and resources - will be horrific. Besides, per Jevon's paradox, we don't gain anything. We'll briefly conserve energy, then the masses will boink like rabbits, which will increase the surplus population. The energy savings from the heat pumps will be overwhelmed by boinkers.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', '
')- Divorce your car and move to a walkable community (change zoning laws)
Zoning laws? I see.
So, are we to change where people work in mass? Or tear down existing business districts to create housing? What shall we do with trillions of dollars worth of existing housing? Are the suburbanites to be relocated at the point of a bayonet?
Or is this a kinder, gentler relocation - i.e., one that no one will choose to do?
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', '
')- Become a cannabis farmer (government needs to make leagal)
by Ludi » Tue 20 Jun 2006, 21:45:52
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'H')ere's another question for Novus:
Where will the funds come from to implement your solutions?
In my opinion energy is money. If there is money then it will find its' way to the energy sooner or later. One solution I have been thinking about is where some type energy credit becomes the currency of the future. Anyone who can produce energy can basically print their own money. This changes the creation of money away from banks and puts it in the hands of producers where it belongs. The money system can then only expand as much energy creation does.
Oh for the love of pete, Novus! Please TRY to stay in the real world. I'm not talking about some fabulous future in which people can print their own legitimate currency, I'm talking about the REAL ACTUAL WORLD we live in today.
Stop living in fantasy land. This is serious, real stuff we're dealing with here.
I think I'm giving up on this nonsense.
Thanx for doomerizing me a little more, Novus. Thanx a bundle.
by rwwff » Tue 20 Jun 2006, 21:57:27
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'T')hanx for doomerizing me a little more, Novus.
Just relax and enjoy the ride; I think most people have deduced that there really are only two paths forward, "Monte's Power Down", and "Go For Broke". Monte is getting a little.... intense... because he's figured out what I've figured out. TPTB have selected "Go For Broke" and have stomped on the gas pedal. Basically this means that this multi billion person civilization is headed straight down a runway with a brick wall at the end. If fusion or true geothermal deploy in time, we can pull up and survive in luxury. If they fail.... We're gonna be a flaming pile of refuse.
abundance fleeting
men falling like hungry leaves
decay masters all
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rwwff
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by rwwff » Tue 20 Jun 2006, 22:18:10
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', ' ')If fusion or true geothermal deploy in time, we can pull up and survive in luxury.
And I become yet more doomeristic.
Fusion and "true geothermal" (whatever that means) DO NOT ADDRESS the other inevitable Peak Problems we face as a culture.
Can you not get this through your heads????
I understand them, I'm just calling it like I see it.
Mostly I see the end result as a flaming pile of refuse. I've given a more vivid description of the nightmare that I see, in another thread, and I'd prefer to not do that again.
Just think of it as betting the lives of 6 billion people on 23-Red.
"True geothermal" would be some magical scientific and engineering breakthrough in materials and processes that would allow tapping the energy in the mantle without relying on unstable geology for the opportunity. There are other types of geothermal that nibble at the edges which are being deployed or are currently deployable, but they don't come close to a power solution for the future. True geothermal or fusion, would provide enough power to create hydrogen from the electrolysis of water on the scale that one might classify as luxury.
But, like I said above.... 23-Red.
Spin the wheel.
by rwwff » Tue 20 Jun 2006, 23:37:29
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', 'M')ostly I see the end result as a flaming pile of refuse. I've given a more vivid description of the nightmare that I see, in another thread, and I'd prefer to not do that again.
I don't suppose you might be willing to include a link? Yes, I can always use search or google within the domain, but a link can be more concise.
http://www.peakoil.com/post314872.html+nuke#314872Good excercise with the search button. I rarely use it here...
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')I guess I only partly agree. I think they have, as you propose, decided to go for broke - but not out of a hope that a techno-fix of any sort will occur. Those are, quite frankly, not going to happen before peak oil intervenes and shuts the process down.
No, I think they're accumulating cash and other assets. They'll buy the goods and services they want, and they can afford it. The typical American or European will live frugally, shiver in a cold house during winter, and die early for lack of medical care. The third world will die. But for a billionaire, life will be just fine.
Could be. I certainly can't demonstrate proof to the contrary. Still, I'd rather execute a "go for broke" and fail, than participate in Monte's controlled die-off. I'm uninterested in "fair", I'm interested in winning, or least going down swinging.
Besides, we open the windows here in the winter. No shivering requried. Just a sigh of relief. If I feel a little chilly, a sweater makes it just absolutely perfect. ... back to reality ....
OTOH, I don't like to completely dismiss the possible deployment of a working fusion generator within the United States before everything comes unglued. I hate being wrong. If I give'em 1:100 odds, and they make it, then I wasn't being a complete idiot, they just did incredible work.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he essential problem for many is to accept that lots of people are going to die, and nothing can (or will) be done to stop it. It will require a change of attitude, one which most resist.
by MonteQuest » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 00:32:31
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', 'I')f fusion or true geothermal deploy in time, we can pull up and survive in luxury.
Not with our current mindset we won't. We will just ravage the environment with a renewed vengeance. When we came upon fossil fuels we certainly didn't embrace environmental responsibility. Neither with nuclear that was going to be "too cheap to meter."
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
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by rwwff » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 01:37:58
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', 'I')f fusion or true geothermal deploy in time, we can pull up and survive in luxury.
Not with our current mindset we won't. We will just ravage the environment with a renewed vengeance. When we came upon fossil fuels we certainly didn't embrace environmental responsibility. Neither with nuclear that was going to be "too cheap to meter."
I didn't say aesthetically pleasing, I said luxury.
There used to be a usenet group (half as a joke) alt.pave.the.earth.
Imagine if you will......
A world of genetically engineered ulti-fruit plants that grow in tanks of warm water, and fed by electrically produced nutrients sucked out of the air. Oxygen, Iron, Aluminum, etc, all ripped apart and put back together on a massive scale. A manufactured sun-shielding atmosphere and powered heat pumps controlling the environment at a comfortable 72 degrees F and 35% relative humidity world wide. Humans spending their lives in chat rooms, blogs, and VR simulators, occassionally getting together in groups for sexual exploits and fights, then off to the hospital to get fixed up or safed for pregnancy. The great crime of the era becomes lacing people's ulti-fruit burgers with hallucinigenic powder and placing wagers on whether they stroke out or not...
A very different kind of hell, I think.
The amount of environmental damage humans could accomplish with a powerful, renewable energy source is staggering.
abundance fleeting
men falling like hungry leaves
decay masters all
by Zardoz » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 09:43:35
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', '.')..Besides, we open the windows here in the winter. No shivering requried. Just a sigh of relief. If I feel a little chilly, a sweater makes it just absolutely perfect. ... back to reality....
The nasty reality being that those of us who live in temperate climates like yours (and mine) are going to have lots and lots of company when TSHTF. Hope you have a spare room for them.
People who live in the very cold climates are not going to just lay down and accept death by freezing. They'll make their way to areas where you can survive winter nights without a heat source.
Get ready to say "Howdy!" to a whole bunch of new neighbors...
"Thank you for attending the oil age. We're going to scrape what we can out of these tar pits in Alberta and then shut down the machines and turn out the lights. Goodnight." - seldom_seen
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by rwwff » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 14:26:58
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zardoz', 'T')he nasty reality being that those of us who live in temperate climates like yours (and mine) are going to have lots and lots of company when TSHTF. Hope you have a spare room for them.
Back to Zombie Hordes again.
1) if it were true, the Zombies will go for these hippy communes, permaculture farms, and purposeful communities just as soon, or more likely sooner, than they'd come for us.
2) In Texas, we have standing orders to shoot all Zombies. You have to get'em in the head though, just like in the movies. You don't get any points for body shots.
Those jokes aside, I have to point out that if I'm ever able to come with a strategy for a civilian horde to successfully invade from the north, I'll become concerned. As it is, every time I try one, I just end up with a very large pile of dead Zombies, a few burned buildings and a few dead locals. I can come to only one conclusion.... There will be no Zombie hordes.
abundance fleeting
men falling like hungry leaves
decay masters all
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rwwff
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by fireplaceguy » Thu 22 Jun 2006, 15:15:02
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zardoz', 'T')he nasty reality being that those of us who live in temperate climates like yours (and mine) are going to have lots and lots of company when TSHTF. Hope you have a spare room for them.
Back to Zombie Hordes again.
1) if it were true, the Zombies will go for these hippy communes, permaculture farms, and purposeful communities just as soon, or more likely sooner, than they'd come for us.
2) In Texas, we have standing orders to shoot all Zombies. You have to get'em in the head though, just like in the movies. You don't get any points for body shots.
Those jokes aside, I have to point out that if I'm ever able to come with a strategy for a civilian horde to successfully invade from the north, I'll become concerned. As it is, every time I try one, I just end up with a very large pile of dead Zombies, a few burned buildings and a few dead locals. I can come to only one conclusion.... There will be no Zombie hordes.
Too bad! I was hoping to put some dead zombie matter in a centrifuge and see if they have any oil in 'em...
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