[rwwff]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'w')hy does a move towards these concepts give rise to the visions of poverty, hard labor, and strife that we see trotted out?

[Cabrone]

Wildwell, I totally agree with your solutions to PO. We need not just an energy rethink but an architectural and social rethink to go with it.

Our living environment needs to be redesigned to encourage non polluting ways. Our towns and cities are designed for business, not people and this must change. In the town that I live a new shopping centre is being erected. The whole project is about cramming as many shops in as possible and making as much cash as you can, no consideration has been given to the people in the area and the environmental concerns that all the extra cars will produce. For all those shops not one new building for the community is going to be erected.

There needs to be a revolution in the minds of the people that make these decisions. Ordinary people can try and do their bit but without the system realigning itself in the right direction our efforts will be small.

My hope is that PO will force these people to reassess their priorities and the balance of power will shift back to the people.

[Doly]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cabrone', 'O')rdinary people can try and do their bit but without the system realigning itself in the right direction our efforts will be small.

[CARVER]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', 'B')ut I have a fine rule that has served me well. If you don't fully understand it, don't sign it, and don't vote for it.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Wildwell', 'W')ell I said that the world wouldn't power down to agricultural levels, nor do I think there's a need to. Under no conceivable scenarios would millions of people throw years of education away, remain within walking distance of where they were born and go and shovel horse shit. Its pointless putting forward such a proposition and even more pointless enforcing it.

Governments have enough problems trying to get people to leave their cars at home let alone turn to hard labour and subsistence living.

[Jack]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', ' ')Hard to say really. I think I have a fairly pathetic and feeble understanding of what it is you envision, but I think it includes elements of:

1.) reduced population.
2.) sustained technology, but with much less mass industrial production.
3.) more localization of skills and products
4.) emphasis on renewable energy sources
5.) current economic model has to die, new model based on quality instead of quantity.

I'm sure you'll say I'm all wrong, but I have done my best to understand your proposal; perhaps it is simply beyond the capacity of my limited intelligence and education to truly comprehend.

But I have a fine rule that has served me well. If you don't fully understand it, don't sign it, and don't vote for it.

[Cabrone]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')And what is exactly "the system"?

[TonyPrep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cabrone', 'T')his crop is tough, can be grown for 30 years without any fertilizers or pesticides and actually makes the soil more fertile by when it is grown.

[Wildwell]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Wildwell', 'W')ell I said that the world wouldn't power down to agricultural levels, nor do I think there's a need to. Under no conceivable scenarios would millions of people throw years of education away, remain within walking distance of where they were born and go and shovel horse shit. Its pointless putting forward such a proposition and even more pointless enforcing it.

Governments have enough problems trying to get people to leave their cars at home let alone turn to hard labour and subsistence living.

[Ludi]

I strongly disagree with you, Wildwell, but that's ok.

You can choose your path, I will choose mine.

[Graeme]

This is a really good thread that cuts to the heart of the problem. It is easy to recognise what the problems are but harder to suggest possible solutions often because many here will say that it can't be done. I will try with off-the-cuff solutions that are probably naive and certainly incomplete. As I see it, there are 3 main inter-related problems to address here:
(1) Peak Oil, (2) Environment and (3) Economy.
Solutions
1. Ramp up all renewable (solar, wind, geothermal, biomass, tidal and like, nuclear) energy sources as soon as possible. Power down all fossil fuels (oil, gas and coal). Unfortunately, we will still need the latter for decades to come. Use fossil fuels more efficiently.
2. Implementing 1 will help 2 but, in addition, alternative fuels (ethanol, biodiesel, butanol, hydrogen) need to be developed. Also alternative (e.g. hydrid, ev and fuel cell) road, rail, ocean and air transport that does not use fossil fuels. International agreements like Kyoto that allow dramatic cuts in GHGs.
3. Economic growth can still occur but this has to be in a sustainable manner, ie it does not exhaust the world's natural resources but allows them to be replenished. Government controls on the excesses of capitalism. Redistribution of wealth through income tax that provide social services. International trade rules which promote fair employment conditions and open markets. Freedom to choose your own lifestyle - small rural communities versus medium to large urban ones.

I challenge others to add positive comments to the above.

[Jack]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Graeme', '
')3. Economic growth can still occur but this has to be in a sustainable manner, ie it does not exhaust the world's natural resources but allows them to be replenished.

[Graeme]

I can think of 2 comments immediately. Firstly, recycling. Secondly, intellectual property. We are not going to run out of new ideas. We simply reconstitute the same physical material to make something useful.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', 'I') really don't see how one sustains technology without mass production.

[TonyPrep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Graeme', 'I') can think of 2 comments immediately. Firstly, recycling. Secondly, intellectual property. We are not going to run out of new ideas. We simply reconstitute the same physical material to make something useful.

[Graeme]

You're partly right. But so am I.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')owever, technologies such as renewable energy, recycling and the provision of services can, if carried out appropriately, provide for growth in the economic sense, either without the use of limited resources, or by using a relatively small amount of resources with a small impact. In the latter case, even the use of small amounts of resources may be unsustainable if continued indefinitely.

[TonyPrep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Graeme', 'Y')ou're partly right. But so am I.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')owever, technologies such as renewable energy, recycling and the provision of services can, if carried out appropriately, provide for growth in the economic sense, either without the use of limited resources, or by using a relatively small amount of resources with a small impact. In the latter case, even the use of small amounts of resources may be unsustainable if continued indefinitely.

[Graeme]

You didn't read the article or my quote. Recycling, renewable energy and new ideas and services are resources to sustain growth. In addition, we can use physical resources outside the Earth (e.g. asteroids) to sustain long-term growth.

Take a look at Omnitir post here:
http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic21378-0-asc-30.html

[TonyPrep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Graeme', 'Y')ou didn't read the article or my quote. Recycling, renewable energy and new ideas and services are resources to sustain growth. In addition, we can use physical resources outside the Earth (e.g. asteroids) to sustain long-term growth.

Take a look at Omnitir post here:
http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic21378-0-asc-30.html

[Doly]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TonyPrep', 'H')ow long can you continue to make stuff from the bits of old stuff that people throw away? Don't you think this "resource" will dwindle? If not, why not?